"Range melee" mechanic

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    • "Range melee" mechanic

      Why unit with range attack with stats of melee unit a problematic ?
      it completely top all other melee units. you need melee units for holding territory. this abomination can just walk up to your face, shell you and there you go all defend units become useless

      this force players to just use the same unit or spam out arti / air units
      the problem now with the cost, arti and air are expensive and can't cover all possible units.

      There are more broken units is not a good argument against nerfing mot inf

      What about gunship? or other units that specialize against soft target ?

      That is not a reason to ignore all melee units that completely owned by mot inf too

      How would I fixed this without remove its gimmick ?
      alright what is its gimmick?

      as I see its gimmick is too prematurely damage enemy before engage in melee.

      my purposed mechanic would fix problem with its having range attack but still keep the gimmick.
      let me present you

      "Range Melee"
      noted that im suck at naming thing. feels free to suggest a better name

      what change ?
      1. remove attack range from mot inf.
      2. new ability bounded to terrain and give it to mot inf; Range melee

      how it work?
      in short, units that have this ability will have special melee attack and defend tick before other units do.
      aka. attack or defend first before enemy.

      In the tick simulation I will not including scenario where both side are attacking due to how it work is just the same but switch side
      and will not include entrancement and will simplicity damage & HP for easy understanding

      *A is left inf and B is right inf


      This is how currently melee work
      Untitled-2.png


      Now let see how range melee work
      Untitled-3.png


      but wait? what if enemy do have unit with range melee ability too !? here it go into same tick and even out like normal melee engagement then follow up with the rest unit of stack
      *A1 and B1 are gen3 motar inf
      Untitled-5.png





      now this ability certain could apply to Varity of units
      not just that but also can tuned down some extreme damage buff
      ex. of unit with their terrain that will have range melee

      unitterrainextra
      mot infcity and subgen3 only
      tankopen ground
      TDcity and subtuned down defend bonus
      spec opsjungle
      NGcity and suball hail NG
      Files
      This post was made by Leader of the Church of ROAD
    • Why don't you just make motorized infantry yourself and get them to lvl 6? In my experience you can't hit with the 20 range and not get hit back if the other person also has the range attqck. It appears to be a simultaneous engagement.

      Motorized infantry is the most commonly used but I dont think it is the best. I have long used mechanized infantry(euro doctrine) from time to time and they will put a beat down on motorized infantry. Yes, the range attack is annoying when you don't have it.

      It sounds to me like the issue is you being offline while the other person is active. As with most units the active player has the advantage. I really don't think we want to design units to make them super effective while the player is offline....just image how much the ksva's of CoN would love that if they could spam tons of games and have all their units be effective offline.
    • Play eastern doctrine so you can be sure no one can beat you to lvl 6 motorized infantry. I have a feeling you are frustrated because you want to use ng to hold your cities while morale is increasing but people are killing your units with ranged motorized. This is why you want them to have to engage. If you use motorized yourself your problem is solved.
    • if it was MRLs, sure that unit expensive, high building demand, bad against melee, don't have damage against air, speed nerfed for so it can be chased. MRLs supposed to be "high power level" unit. that why it is OP.
      "capable of laying down a devastating barrage of destruction weapon"

      not this "transported by light vehicles. serves to hold strategic target."
      This post was made by Leader of the Church of ROAD
    • Mot Inf have by default a quite weak attack, you do not want to attack with them in melee by default.

      You want to force the enemie to leave his entrenchment and attack you.


      Outside of 4x I hardly consider the mortar an issue, never really see people use it anyhow.

      On a 4x I once lost a few cities and units to a mortar rush, but when I woke up my air force shred his troops with ease and I just reconquered my cities.

      30K another predecessor of CON had special units inside a stack, like archer who are range, Knights who could flank and stuff like that, but because the game did not any battle reports like CON has none, it was just one indistinguishable mess.
    • Colonel Waffles wrote:

      I think for something like this to work inf would have to have a complete overhaul. In theory, if Gen 3 attacked a Gen 2, the Gen 3 will deal 6 dmg and the Gen 2 will defend with maybe 4.5 damage. At this point, naval inf no longer really useful as a spearhead unit since mot inf does it better, and god knows naval inf don’t need this ability.
      Not sure that's a fair comparison?

      Gen 2 naval inf does 8 attack damage, and gen 3 naval inf does 11 (Euro doctrine, as that's what I'm playing right now so I can check it quickly!)
    • WalterChang wrote:

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      I think for something like this to work inf would have to have a complete overhaul. In theory, if Gen 3 attacked a Gen 2, the Gen 3 will deal 6 dmg and the Gen 2 will defend with maybe 4.5 damage. At this point, naval inf no longer really useful as a spearhead unit since mot inf does it better, and god knows naval inf don’t need this ability.
      Not sure that's a fair comparison?
      Gen 2 naval inf does 8 attack damage, and gen 3 naval inf does 11 (Euro doctrine, as that's what I'm playing right now so I can check it quickly!)
      I was comparing the mot inf. My argument is that if mot inf got this ability, naval inf would not be as useful anymore
      Yee Haw
    • Colonel Waffles wrote:

      I was comparing the mot inf. My argument is that if mot inf got this ability, naval inf would not be as useful anymore

      Sorry, maybe I didn't explain what I meant, or didn't get your meaning.

      You said Gen3 Mot Inf would do 6 attack to Gen2's ~4.5 def. And that would make them more powerful than Naval Infantry as a spearhead.

      But it wouldn't. It would only make them more powerful than Gen1 Naval Infantry. If you're using Gen3 Mot Inf as a comparison, then I think you should use Gen2 or Gen3 Naval Inf to compare it with. And Gen 2 or 3 Naval Inf would still be more powerful as a spearhead than Playbabe's suggestion for Gen3 Mot Inf, because they have higher attack damage.

      Is that not true?
    • WalterChang wrote:

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      I was comparing the mot inf. My argument is that if mot inf got this ability, naval inf would not be as useful anymore
      Sorry, maybe I didn't explain what I meant, or didn't get your meaning.

      You said Gen3 Mot Inf would do 6 attack to Gen2's ~4.5 def. And that would make them more powerful than Naval Infantry as a spearhead.

      But it wouldn't. It would only make them more powerful than Gen1 Naval Infantry. If you're using Gen3 Mot Inf as a comparison, then I think you should use Gen2 or Gen3 Naval Inf to compare it with. And Gen 2 or 3 Naval Inf would still be more powerful as a spearhead than Playbabe's suggestion for Gen3 Mot Inf, because they have higher attack damage.

      Is that not true?
      Well, I didn’t necessarily mean they would be more powerful, as in more damage, but in general they will be more useful for that role. Naval infantry is harder to produce, needing naval base and such as well as being more expensive. Playbabe’s motorized inf is still cheap and reliable, as well as now being a good spearhead. They won’t do as much damage, but their defense will still be high (compared to naval’s abysmal defense). All things considered, they would do the job just as well
      Yee Haw
    • Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Well, I didn’t necessarily mean they would be more powerful, as in more damage, but in general they will be more useful for that role. Naval infantry is harder to produce, needing naval base and such as well as being more expensive. Playbabe’s motorized inf is still cheap and reliable, as well as now being a good spearhead. They won’t do as much damage, but their defense will still be high (compared to naval’s abysmal defense). All things considered, they would do the job just as well
      That's true enough. This is partly why I think CoW's system for unit upgrades is better: you can't just spam a load of units at L1 really cheap, and then upgrade them later for free; you have to pay the difference in mobilization cost between levels for each unit you decide to upgrade. But anyway, that would only solve part of the issue at hand, if it were ever introduced to CoN.

      In general, I like playbabe's suggestion. I think you could quite well argue that Gen3 Mot Inf is already better as a spearhead than Nav Inf, because of it's dual role as range and melee unit. I don't think these changes would make them any more so - possibly less so, in fact.

      I think at the very least that MBTs, TDs and AFVs should have a ranged ability as well - and at a lower tier than the Mot Inf gets it. There's no way that infantry should be able to shell armoured units to death at a short distance. Armoured units have big guns on the front, and they should be able to shoot back!

      Another possible solution might be to abstract the mortar attack a little bit more. That is, remove the ranged ability altogether, and just give Gen3 Mot Inf one free unopposed attack at the start of the engagement, to simulate a mortar barrage before the general assault.
      (oh, and I don't see any reason why other infantry types shouldn't be able to use mortars as well.)
    • WalterChang wrote:

      That's true enough. This is partly why I think CoW's system for unit upgrades is better: you can't just spam a load of units at L1 really cheap, and then upgrade them later for free; you have to pay the difference in mobilization cost between levels for each unit you decide to upgrade. But anyway, that would only solve part of the issue at hand, if it were ever introduced to CoN.
      In general, I like playbabe's suggestion. I think you could quite well argue that Gen3 Mot Inf is already better as a spearhead than Nav Inf, because of it's dual role as range and melee unit. I don't think these changes would make them any more so - possibly less so, in fact.

      I think at the very least that MBTs, TDs and AFVs should have a ranged ability as well - and at a lower tier than the Mot Inf gets it. There's no way that infantry should be able to shell armoured units to death at a short distance. Armoured units have big guns on the front, and they should be able to shoot back!

      Another possible solution might be to abstract the mortar attack a little bit more. That is, remove the ranged ability altogether, and just give Gen3 Mot Inf one free unopposed attack at the start of the engagement, to simulate a mortar barrage before the general assault.
      (oh, and I don't see any reason why other infantry types shouldn't be able to use mortars as well.)
      I think MBTs especially would benefit from this sort of change. I’m not a fan of the CoW system, but that argument is for a different thread. From my understanding playbabe’s suggestion is, in a way, a free attack from the mot inf.
      Yee Haw