Helicopters need nerf more than MRL

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    • Which brings us back full circle to what I have already proposed earlier, perhaps there should not be an effective counter for helos from ground units only. The reasons for which this may be true, have been mentioned by myself and others such as entrenchment bonus, defensive infrastructure, the cost of a string of bases required to operate helos, comperative research and production costs etc... Also known as game balance!

      The fact that both of you are not willing to entertain the idea that perhaps its ok that we are not able to counter helos with ground units only, is what I find disturbing and yes to the extent of saying that this type of refusal is one dimensional and myopic... Nough said

      Cheers
    • I'd appreciate if you read my original post.
      The problem in question is ALLIANCE CHALLENGE ONLY. Where 14 people are battling over just 750 points.
      NO ONE- I repeat, NO ONE- keeps artillery entrenched in a city "with bunkers".
      ABSOLUTELY NO ONE.
      Next, in challenge, only EU doctrine builds MAA. So take it as 5.5 dmg.
      Attack heli tier 1 does 8.5 dmg- once again, alliance match is usually doctrine specific.
      What I am talking about is this.
      Artillery are shooting at each other on the border. No one dares to come into the other's territory.
      The helicopter patrols on friendly territory, so the helicopter is on friendly territory but the patrol circle touches enemy artillery.
      Soon enough, even if enemy arty is protected by MAA, the helicopter deals full damage and takes 35% damage.
      When using patrol circle, enemy anti airs offensive damage is DISABLED.
      In addition, it fires back ONCE, NOT TWICE after the helicopter deals damage.
      This is the equivalent of "hit and run" on the ground.
      "Le patriotisme, c'est aimer son pays. Le nationalisme, c'est détester celui des autres."-Charles De Gaulle, Leader of Free France in World War 2.
      English: "Patriotism is to love your country. Nationalism is hating that of others."
    • I have no idea what you talk about ewac123.
      Last time i checked enemy aircraft got a lot of damage from my active AA Attack when i move the red circle of aa gun into the blue patrol circle of airforce.

      Anyone whos patroling with AirCraft while offline might as well trash his units into the next bin. @my Enemies: Thanks for the easy kills.

      Talking about not taking damage from ground units. I regulary eat lots of shit attacking stack with tanks and anti tank infantry. They deal 3.7 damage when fully leveled up. If you dont pay attention you might lose a gunship on the run...

      I think there is quite a good balance when talking about helicopters. Nerf Inf please!
      @Dorado If you Close the Forum and move everything to Discord you will lose my Feedback for sure.
    • ewac123 wrote:

      I'd appreciate if you read my original post.
      The problem in question is ALLIANCE CHALLENGE ONLY. Where 14 people are battling over just 750 points.
      NO ONE- I repeat, NO ONE- keeps artillery entrenched in a city "with bunkers".
      ABSOLUTELY NO ONE.
      Next, in challenge, only EU doctrine builds MAA. So take it as 5.5 dmg.
      Attack heli tier 1 does 8.5 dmg- once again, alliance match is usually doctrine specific.
      What I am talking about is this.
      Artillery are shooting at each other on the border. No one dares to come into the other's territory.
      The helicopter patrols on friendly territory, so the helicopter is on friendly territory but the patrol circle touches enemy artillery.
      Soon enough, even if enemy arty is protected by MAA, the helicopter deals full damage and takes 35% damage.
      When using patrol circle, enemy anti airs offensive damage is DISABLED.
      In addition, it fires back ONCE, NOT TWICE after the helicopter deals damage.
      This is the equivalent of "hit and run" on the ground.
      So one guy's got a stack of half artillery, half MAA; the other guy's got a stack of artillery with helis patrolling above. Is that right? So the Arty+MAA stack is being attacked by both artillery and helis at the same time? And the guy with the arty and the helis wins?

      Sorry if I'm not understanding the intricacies of alliance challenge fully, but why is this a surprising result?

      I'm not disagreeing with your argument, I just want to understand it better.
    • Ok here's a quick rundown of a 7v7 Elite challenge.
      1 guy goes air.
      1.5 guys go navy.
      0.5 guy gets tank destroyers or whatever.
      Rest get Sam, Maa, arty.
      So basically it depends who gets helis in their build... people without helps in Walter hangs situation tend to have more arty. Or more asf.
      "Le patriotisme, c'est aimer son pays. Le nationalisme, c'est détester celui des autres."-Charles De Gaulle, Leader of Free France in World War 2.
      English: "Patriotism is to love your country. Nationalism is hating that of others."
    • ewac123 wrote:

      Ok here's a quick rundown of a 7v7 Elite challenge.
      1 guy goes air.
      1.5 guys go navy.
      0.5 guy gets tank destroyers or whatever.
      Rest get Sam, Maa, arty.
      So basically it depends who gets helis in their build... people without helps in Walter hangs situation tend to have more arty. Or more asf.
      I still don't see the problem.
      One guy's got an arty/AA stack with helicopter support, and the other guy just has an arty/AA stack. So the Heli guy wins because he's got more attacking power in the fight.
      Why does that warrant a balance change?
    • ewac123 wrote:

      Ok here's a quick rundown of a 7v7 Elite challenge.
      1 guy goes air.
      1.5 guys go navy.
      0.5 guy gets tank destroyers or whatever.
      Rest get Sam, Maa, arty.
      So basically it depends who gets helis in their build... people without helps in Walter hangs situation tend to have more arty. Or more asf.
      tell me who wins...
      @Dorado If you Close the Forum and move everything to Discord you will lose my Feedback for sure.
    • playbabe wrote:

      don't forget that MAA is AA and ground units
      it will do some time attack the heli, deals extra damage.
      and have entrancement bonus to reduce incoming damage
      "Entrancement" bonus!
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    • Kalrakh wrote:

      Yes, that is kind of the issue, the chopper never really enter the range of the MAAV area because their patrol range has the same size
      I don't see that as a balancing problem, though. It's just a strategy for using helicopters (or other aircraft) more effectively, and in that way completely legitimate.

      The defending player can mitigate it by either moving his MAA stack forward so that the aircraft patrol is more central to its own attack range, thereby increasing the likelihood of his MAAs getting to use their attack values as well their defensive ones; or he can pull them back to a province centre where he can get an entrenchment bonus (maybe build a combat outpost as well) so that the heli's attack value is greatly reduced and his MAA's defensive values will damage the aircraft more than they damage him.

      If attack helis can beat unentrenched MAAs by playing smart and staying out of attack range, then I don't see anything wrong with that. If they can beat entrenched MAAs, however, I think there's a more valid question about the balance.

      At the end of the day, MAAs are used to protect other units from aerial attacks: therefore, if the other units (artillery, here) in the MAA stack survive longer in this encounter than the helicopters do, then the MAAs are doing their job. It doesn't matter how much relative damage is done in each strike; the important thing is which set of units survives the longest if the encounter is allowed to reach a conclusion?

      The post was edited 1 time, last by WalterChang ().

    • WalterChang wrote:

      Kalrakh wrote:

      Yes, that is kind of the issue, the chopper never really enter the range of the MAAV area because their patrol range has the same size
      I don't see that as a balancing problem, though. It's just a strategy for using helicopters (or other aircraft) more effectively, and in that way completely legitimate.
      The defending player can mitigate it by either moving his MAA stack forward so that the aircraft patrol is more central to its own attack range, thereby increasing the likelihood of his MAAs getting to use their attack values as well their defensive ones; or he can pull them back to a province centre where he can get an entrenchment bonus (maybe build a combat outpost as well) so that the heli's attack value is greatly reduced and his MAA's defensive values will damage the aircraft more than they damage him.

      If attack helis can beat unentrenched MAAs by playing smart and staying out of attack range, then I don't see anything wrong with that. If they can beat entrenched MAAs, however, I think there's a more valid question about the balance.

      At the end of the day, MAAs are used to protect other units from aerial attacks: therefore, if the other units (artillery, here) in the MAA stack survive longer in this encounter than the helicopters do, then the MAAs are doing their job. It doesn't matter how much relative damage is done in each strike; the important thing is which set of units survives the longest if the encounter is allowed to reach a conclusion?
      That is the core issue: MAAV can't protect other stacks, they can't even protect their own stack efficiently. All they have is point-defense to defend themselves, because their attack is useless with a range of 50, same goes for cruiser.

      If they entrench themselves, it is also pretty useless, because Elite Attack Choppers ignore entrenchment anyway. Not to mention that they huge outdamage MAAV.

      It is quite a balancing issue, if one combat strat makes the counter unit (MAAV) useless in its job: countering choppers.

      Aircrafts already have the advantage of healing much faster anyway.