Helicopters need nerf more than MRL

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    • Helicopters need nerf more than MRL

      Every air player of elite alliance matches know the way to use helicopters.
      Send arty to make a few hits and runs, so enemy arty comes closer.
      Any smart enemy uses MAA with their MRL/Mobile arty.
      Any good player uses at least 3-5 MAA because a smart helicopter player reduces any incoming damage by 65%.
      It's called... Using the 50km patrol circle to avoid triggering a 26km range maa.
      After the helicopter does heavy damage, the broken down maa weakly returns fire(defensive damage only).
      Helicopters really need a nerf.
      "Le patriotisme, c'est aimer son pays. Le nationalisme, c'est détester celui des autres."-Charles De Gaulle, Leader of Free France in World War 2.
      English: "Patriotism is to love your country. Nationalism is hating that of others."
    • ewac123 wrote:

      Every air player of elite alliance matches know the way to use helicopters.
      Send arty to make a few hits and runs, so enemy arty comes closer.
      Any smart enemy uses MAA with their MRL/Mobile arty.
      Any good player uses at least 3-5 MAA because a smart helicopter player reduces any incoming damage by 65%.
      It's called... Using the 50km patrol circle to avoid triggering a 26km range maa.
      After the helicopter does heavy damage, the broken down maa weakly returns fire(defensive damage only).
      Helicopters really need a nerf.
      so youre telling me helis need a nerf because the maa does a bad job at dealing with them? lmao talk about flawed logic
      I am The Baseline for opinions
    • Teburu wrote:

      ewac123 wrote:

      Every air player of elite alliance matches know the way to use helicopters.
      Send arty to make a few hits and runs, so enemy arty comes closer.
      Any smart enemy uses MAA with their MRL/Mobile arty.
      Any good player uses at least 3-5 MAA because a smart helicopter player reduces any incoming damage by 65%.
      It's called... Using the 50km patrol circle to avoid triggering a 26km range maa.
      After the helicopter does heavy damage, the broken down maa weakly returns fire(defensive damage only).
      Helicopters really need a nerf.
      so youre telling me helis need a nerf because the maa does a bad job at dealing with them? lmao talk about flawed logic
      YEP! A buff on MAA IS a nerf to Helis tho... right
      "Le patriotisme, c'est aimer son pays. Le nationalisme, c'est détester celui des autres."-Charles De Gaulle, Leader of Free France in World War 2.
      English: "Patriotism is to love your country. Nationalism is hating that of others."
    • ewac123 wrote:

      Every air player of elite alliance matches know the way to use helicopters.
      Send arty to make a few hits and runs, so enemy arty comes closer.
      Any smart enemy uses MAA with their MRL/Mobile arty.
      Any good player uses at least 3-5 MAA because a smart helicopter player reduces any incoming damage by 65%.
      It's called... Using the 50km patrol circle to avoid triggering a 26km range maa.
      After the helicopter does heavy damage, the broken down maa weakly returns fire(defensive damage only).
      Helicopters really need a nerf.
      This is interesting to me, as a relatively new player of CoN.
      Could you please expand a little on this example? What level are the MAAs and the helis here? What's the relative damage outcomes? Does a 5-stack of helicopters really kill a ground stack of 5 MAAs+ranged bombardment units?
    • The problem stems from the belief that units should be easily countered. Do lvl1 helos attacking have an advantage over lvl1 MAAs defending? They certainly do, now the better question: is that necesserily a bad thing? No it is not, as MAAs are not meant to be a stand alone deterent. There are ways to counter this such as, using combined arms aproach, fly fighter CAP if your opponent has lots of helos, make researching 50 range for your MAAs a priority.

      Saying nurf this or that unit or buff this or that unit is the easy answer. Well the easy answer is hardly ever the right answer specially when it comes to overall unit balance.
    • The way I look at it, the MAA should come out on top against a helicopter in a 1v1 situation where they are the same level. The MAA is primarily an anti-helicopter unit, so if it doesn't kill helicopters it isn't working properly.

      A Level 1 MAA does 8 damage to helicopters, while a L1 Attack Heli does 7 damage to an armoured unit; plus, the MAA has more HP. On paper, it looks like the MAA should win. So what's going on here? If the Heli is getting its attack in first, it'll reduce the MAA to about 3/4 HP before it can return fire, so the heli will receive a bit less than the 8 damage (about 6?). But that still reduces the heli to about 3/4 HP, so it still looks like a pretty even contest. If the MAA dies first because it receives damage before it deals it out, then I think there's something wrong and ewac123 has a point: a helicopter shouldn't be winning a 1v1 contest (or a 2v2 or a 5v5), especially if the MAA stack is padded out with other unit types for more HP and varied damage distribution.

      But what I'm struggling to understand here is exactly how the helicopters are winning in the situation described in ewac123's example - it doesn't sound like they should be, unless the helicopters are a higher level than the MAAs, or there are more helicopters than MAAs. But if that's the case, of course the helis will win and that absolutely is how it should be.
    • Level 1 MAA does 4.5 Damage to helicopter...
      EU MAA does 5.5
      I'm having a hard time understanding the 8 dmg thing
      "Le patriotisme, c'est aimer son pays. Le nationalisme, c'est détester celui des autres."-Charles De Gaulle, Leader of Free France in World War 2.
      English: "Patriotism is to love your country. Nationalism is hating that of others."
    • ewac123 wrote:

      Every air player of elite alliance matches know the way to use helicopters.
      Send arty to make a few hits and runs, so enemy arty comes closer.
      Any smart enemy uses MAA with their MRL/Mobile arty.
      Any good player uses at least 3-5 MAA because a smart helicopter player reduces any incoming damage by 65%.
      It's called... Using the 50km patrol circle to avoid triggering a 26km range maa.
      After the helicopter does heavy damage, the broken down maa weakly returns fire(defensive damage only).
      Helicopters really need a nerf.
      EHHH... WHAT?!
      I am TOTALLY DISAGREE THAT !!! GUNSHIP, ATTACK HELICOPTER AND ASW HELICOPTER NEED NERF, TOTALLY TOXIC IDEA!

      DON'T ANNIHATED OUR HELICOPTER'S, WE NOT NEED 'MADE IN CHINA' TOY'S. WE DISLIKE THESE CHINESE TOY'S!

      __________________________________________
      WE NEED ANTI-NERF FOR MAAV (AA-TANK).

      MAAV need; ATK Helicopter 4.5 to 7.0 (TIER 1).
      Guns are always loaded.
    • ewac123 wrote:

      Level 1 MAA does 4.5 Damage to helicopter...
      EU MAA does 5.5
      I'm having a hard time understanding the 8 dmg thing
      Ah, sorry. I was looking at the Tier 2 EU one! My bad.
      So in that case, looks like attack helis will kill MAAs, tier for tier and unit for unit.

      Yeah, I think you might be right on that one, then.

      The only other thing I'd say is that helicopters are not meant to be used to kill MAA - they're meant to be used to kill whatever the MAA is protecting (MRLs/TA/MA in your case?). And because ground units can be grouped into stacks of 10, while helis can only be in 5s before losing efficiency, that makes a difference. Does a stack of 5 AHs kill a stack of 10 (half MAAs, half bombardment support)? I know that's not a very fair comparison, given that 10 units cost a lot more to build that 5 - so would 2x 5-stacks of attack helis kill your ground stack? I'm guessing yes, even though the ground stack has more HP?

      EDIT: actually, that's not a fair comparison either, because 10 helis should of course be able to kill 5 MAAs!
      I'm unsure on this one. On the one hand, I think MAAs should kill helicopters, unit for unit. And it seems they don't. So that suggests to me that the balance might be a bit off in that regard. But on the other hand, you don't want to completely negate helicopters. If your MAAs are protecting "soft" targets, then AHs are suddenly a lot less effective against the stack as a whole, and being forced to use Gunships will tip the balance back towards the MAAs, no?
      Perhaps you should use TA instead of MRLs?
      (Or buy some ASFs!)

      The post was edited 2 times, last by WalterChang ().

    • This entire line of hypothesis is just wrong. You can't render everything into a one dimensional equation saying can this many units of helos attack a stack of that many units of arty plus MAAs and based on that we need to nurf or buff x unit. This is NOT how you balance a game.

      Sorry but CoN is not one diemensional it has many facets that need to be carefully considered. Did you factor in entrechment bonus for the ground units? Did you factor in bunkers? Did you think about the costs of a series of airbases without which helos lack the range to operate? Did you think of a hundread other factors that play into it? Because unless you do examine this more thouroughly, suggesting any changes will end up messing up game balance further than it currently is.

      I am not suggesting that the game is prefectly balanced not by a longshot, but randomly asking for untis to be nurfed or buffed will only make it worst.
    • corax wrote:

      This entire line of hypothesis is just wrong. You can't render everything into a one dimensional equation saying can this many units of helos attack a stack of that many units of arty plus MAAs and based on that we need to nurf or buff x unit. This is NOT how you balance a game.

      Sorry but CoN is not one diemensional it has many facets that need to be carefully considered. Did you factor in entrechment bonus for the ground units? Did you factor in bunkers? Did you think about the costs of a series of airbases without which helos lack the range to operate? Did you think of a hundread other factors that play into it? Because unless you do examine this more thouroughly, suggesting any changes will end up messing up game balance further than it currently is.

      I am not suggesting that the game is prefectly balanced not by a longshot, but randomly asking for untis to be nurfed or buffed will only make it worst.
      I agree completely that it's not simple.

      However, I do think that a unit whose primary function is to kill helicopters should kill helicopters. The other factors (building prerequisites, research, unit costs, etc) should be balanced around that starting point, in my view.

      EDIT: The entrenchment bonus is a good point; if including this factor gives the advantage to MAAs Vs Helis, then the balance would seem fine to me. If it doesn't, it wouldn't.
      ewac123's desire to have MAAs beat helis, even when they're not entrenched, is perhaps a bit too much to ask.
    • corax wrote:

      This entire line of hypothesis is just wrong. You can't render everything into a one dimensional equation saying can this many units of helos attack a stack of that many units of arty plus MAAs and based on that we need to nurf or buff x unit. This is NOT how you balance a game.

      Sorry but CoN is not one diemensional it has many facets that need to be carefully considered. Did you factor in entrechment bonus for the ground units? Did you factor in bunkers? Did you think about the costs of a series of airbases without which helos lack the range to operate? Did you think of a hundread other factors that play into it? Because unless you do examine this more thouroughly, suggesting any changes will end up messing up game balance further than it currently is.

      I am not suggesting that the game is prefectly balanced not by a longshot, but randomly asking for untis to be nurfed or buffed will only make it worst.
      Yes. I agree with you 'corax'
      Guns are always loaded.
    • WalterChang wrote:

      corax wrote:

      This entire line of hypothesis is just wrong. You can't render everything into a one dimensional equation saying can this many units of helos attack a stack of that many units of arty plus MAAs and based on that we need to nurf or buff x unit. This is NOT how you balance a game.

      Sorry but CoN is not one diemensional it has many facets that need to be carefully considered. Did you factor in entrechment bonus for the ground units? Did you factor in bunkers? Did you think about the costs of a series of airbases without which helos lack the range to operate? Did you think of a hundread other factors that play into it? Because unless you do examine this more thouroughly, suggesting any changes will end up messing up game balance further than it currently is.

      I am not suggesting that the game is prefectly balanced not by a longshot, but randomly asking for untis to be nurfed or buffed will only make it worst.
      I do think that a unit whose primary function is to kill helicopters should kill helicopters.
      Where is it stated that the primary function of the MAA is to kill helos??? This is precisely the type of jumping to conclusions I am trying to warn you against. lvl1 MAA has a 0.5 higher stat in damage output vs helos than it does vs aircraft. That does not equate to saying its primary function is to kill helos. Thats just your errounous interpretation of its stats.

      If I am to use this type of faulty logic then lvl1 fighter primary function is to kill helos because it is the best stat that it posess 1.5 better damage output vs helos over aircraft. No one here would agree however that this is an accurate interpretation. Like I said many things to factor in; lets stop this myopic one dimensional thinking as it gets us nowhere.

      Cheers

      The post was edited 2 times, last by corax ().

    • WalterChang wrote:

      ewac123 wrote:

      Every air player of elite alliance matches know the way to use helicopters.
      Send arty to make a few hits and runs, so enemy arty comes closer.
      Any smart enemy uses MAA with their MRL/Mobile arty.
      Any good player uses at least 3-5 MAA because a smart helicopter player reduces any incoming damage by 65%.
      It's called... Using the 50km patrol circle to avoid triggering a 26km range maa.
      After the helicopter does heavy damage, the broken down maa weakly returns fire(defensive damage only).
      Helicopters really need a nerf.
      This is interesting to me, as a relatively new player of CoN.Could you please expand a little on this example? What level are the MAAs and the helis here? What's the relative damage outcomes? Does a 5-stack of helicopters really kill a ground stack of 5 MAAs+ranged bombardment units?
      Well keep in mind tht groudn units can always benefit from defense bonus, helis can onyl opeate with airport + airfield and you can stack 5 anti air guns with 5 inf as damage eater
      @Dorado If you Close the Forum and move everything to Discord you will lose my Feedback for sure.
    • corax wrote:

      WalterChang wrote:

      I do think that a unit whose primary function is to kill helicopters should kill helicopters.
      Where is it stated that the preimary function of the MAA is to kill helos??? This is precisely the type of jumping to conclusions I am trying to warn you against. lvl1 MAA has a 0.5 advantage in damage output vs helos than it does vs aircraft. That does not equate to saying its primary function is to kill helos. Thats just your errounous interpretation of its stats.
      If I am to use this type of faulty logic then lvl1 fighter primary function is to kill helos because it is the best stat that it posess 1.5 better damage output vs helos over aircraft. No one here would agree however that this is an accurate interpretation. Like I said many things to factor in; lets stop this myopic one dimensional thinking as it gets us nowhere.

      Cheers
      My interpretation is based not so much on the stats, but on the fact that there is no other ground unit whose primary function is to kill helicopters. There has to be one, and the MAA is it. The fact that it also does good damage to fixed wings doesn't change the fact that there is no other ground unit than can effectively counter Helis. In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that the overall balance would be better if MAA were a lot less effective against fixed wing (especially heavies) than it currently is, because we have SAMs to do that job - but that's diverging into a slightly different topic.

      My myopic one-dimensional thinking is based on the premise that helicopters can't be countered by MAA - or any other ground unit - as a way of protecting a ground stack. If true, then I think that's problem for the game's balance. If it's not true, then ewac123 was just talking rubbish in the first place!