Attack helicopters vs Strike fighters

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  • KFGauss wrote:

    playbabe wrote:

    the big let down on Heli is the damage distribution is too powerful.
    enemy can absorb so such damage from damage focus stack such as 5 gunship or 5 attack heli :/
    they should add ability to heli to ignore damage distribution
    i'm not sure how I put this into my current spreadsheet. It might become a written note.
    Radar signature, unit type, maybe even counters would also be important
    I am The Baseline for opinions

  • About Teburu's points

    Yes, and

    The Discord claim that got me involved was someone writing to new, Public Game, players something along the lines of "SF are terrible/useless."

    They wrote that without adding any nuance or context, and then went on (without nuance or context) to claim Helis were better in all important characteristics.

    I was pretty confident that for all the (sad) reasons you listed, SF *are* useful in public games. So, I wanted to make sure I wasn't fooling myself.

    Hence, the stats comparison that can educate noobs and can guide choices made in public games and in AvA games (yes - I know that decent AvA players don't need the info, they know it already).

  • Anna Jija wrote:

    @KFGauss like you always say, better to start a new thread instead of using one thats been dead for several months
    ???

    I always recommend preserving the existing information by building on it and extending it, instead of ignoring it by spamming new threads.

    In part, because step 1 should always to search to see if you're contributing anything new.

    Information (aka threads) never dies, not even in black holes.

    However, it can be ignored, if we like re-inventing wheels.

  • I need a little help, please.

    Refueling time at a 10/10 HP airbase/airfield is 15 minutes
    Refueling time at a 4/10 HP airbase/airfield is 37.5 minutes?
    Refueling time at a 5/10 HP airbase/airfield is 30.0 minutes?

    What's the refueling time at a 6/10, 7/10, 8/10, and 9/10 airbase/airfield ?

    Is there a known fairly simple formula like Time = 15 + { 15 * [ (10 - HP)/4 ] } for predicting the refueling time

    Or is it something else?

    The post was edited 2 times, last by KFGauss ().

  • KFGauss wrote:

    I need a little help, please.

    Refueling time at a 10/10 HP airbase/airfield is 15 minutes
    Refueling time at a 4/10 HP airbase/airfield is 37.5 minutes?
    Refueling time at a 5/10 HP airbase/airfield is 30.0 minutes?

    What's the refueling time at a 6/10, 7/10, 8/10, and 9/10 airbase/airfield ?

    Is there a known fairly simple formula like Time = 15 + { 15 * [ (10 - HP)/4 ] } for predicting the refueling time

    Or is it something else?
    I would presume for 6/10 ab would be about 25 mins and for 7/10 would be about 20 mins

    for 8 and 9 /10 would be between 15 and 20, im not a math expert so

    you wrote 5 msgs in a row btw. its ok tho :D
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  • Here's what I have so far.

    For me even though the Helis can deliver more damage per unit of time (I was a little surprised) to either a Hard or Soft target (one kind, not both), the results below only add a little impetus to building a handful of anti-SAM Helis. The results don't sour me on using SF in typical public games.

    I'm still addicted to the SF speed and range that lets me quickly move from one ongoing battle to another/new one.

    I like that a group of SF can cover 3.5X more area than a group of Helis.

    I like the SF flexibility against both Hard and Soft Targets, instead of the Helis' Hard vs Soft specialization.
    • For some of the stats below to get a more valid comparison between Helis and SF, I really should average the Heli capabilities, movement times, and construction costs; and I should add together the Helis research costs.
    I like that SF need fewer Airbases/Airfields to keep up with a rapidly advancing Front Line.

    I like that SF can advance through their Tech Levels faster than Helis.
    <EDIT Start> I've learned that the SF Research speed illustrated below is turbocharged because those are EU dates. The Eastern doctrine has less speedup. The Western SF research speed is the slowest of the three. </EDIT End>

    I like that SF start with decent HP at Level 1.
    <UPDATE Start> Someone pointed out that because I happened to use the EU Doctrine for my tables, The SF HP has a 20% bonus. That's worth a little attention. Non EU fighters Start with 20HP and have 23 HP at Level 4. The tables above show the EU's larger 24 HP and 26.5 HP values.</UPDATE End>

    However,

    I HATE that SFs <EDIT Start> basically evaporate when they bump into can be hurt badly by </EDIT End> a SAM/MAA, ASF, or FFs. That's a lot of vulnerabilities.

    I hate that SF compete with other units for my Components income.

    Sometime in the future I want to do a little more sophisticated calculation/simulation that will evaluate how fast you can advance with each unit while a battle front advances. Those calculations would include both the time and cost of constructing new airfields, the refueling time penalty you pay when an airbase/airfield is incomplete, the time required to fly to a hospital, and the hospital time needed to recover from damage.

    SF_HELI_Stats_00.PNG

    SF_HELI_Stats_01.PNG

    SF_HELI_Stats_02.PNG

    SF_HELI_Stats_03.PNG

    SF_HELI_Stats_04.PNG

    SF_HELI_Stats_05.PNG

    The post was edited 9 times, last by KFGauss ().

  • KFGauss wrote:

    I HATE that SFs basically evaporate when they bump into a SAM/MAA, ASF, or FFs. That's a lot of vulnerabilities.

    I hate that SF compete with other units for my Components income.
    How ... I just took out multiple level 2 SAM (does 8.5 damage which is a 1/3 of a plane). Hit with 1 ASF / 4 SF and the ASF absorbs 4.25 of damage (after first week my air supp just backup and shock absorbers for SF). MAA is a joke as 3 inf do more damage.

    And dont blindly attack ships or SAMS. Pay attention to CoN news and pierce the AA bubble (5 frigs dont bother thats why I love frigs and have never been sunk by choppers; well once I left Officer solo and he got jumped by like 15 choppers on mideast map and was stuck in the med)

    But key with SF is to keep fresh via Adv level hospital ( 1 ASF / 4 SF) the ASF gets beat the F up. when get to 50 pct send to hospital and heal and swap in new. the 4 SF same thing. get close to 80 pct send one to hospital and swamp in 100 pct health to share with other 3. Think lost 2 whole game as left to patrol possible insurgent cities over night. But if you manage your planes then dont lose them.

    Current game must have > 100 kills (including tanks; MRL; SAMS; mobile radar; attack subs; Attack choppers; (dude had 15 went to bug out and it was classic he had 3 stacks of 5 slowly trying to escape. But they were so close together when attacked 1 stack with my 5 SF it actually engaged all 3 of his stacks. So 5 SF took out 3 choppers per attack. Took out 6 this way before had to focus on ground targets.) So guy had similiar stacks as Teburu except navy.

    For Teberu ... Ill post the screen shots of the battle casualties. France who was head of opposing coalition and 3rd overall (but hey public is meta).

    And Components not high really to me get in Electronics issues as Frigs high Elec too. Armor I build Tank destroyers (which are awesome at holding cities; fast builds; can fly by like day 12ish; low resource and near by if need to fight tanks.)
    "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him "

    aka ...The killer formerly known as BuckeyeChamp

  • Buckeyechamp wrote:

    KFGauss wrote:

    I HATE that SFs basically evaporate when they bump into a SAM/MAA, ASF, or FFs. That's a lot of vulnerabilities.

    I hate that SF compete with other units for my Components income.
    How ... I just took out multiple level 2 SAM (does 8.5 damage which is a 1/3 of a plane). Hit with 1 ASF / 4 SF and the ASF absorbs 4.25 of damage (after first week my air supp just backup and shock absorbers for SF). MAA is a joke as 3 inf do more damage.
    And dont blindly attack ships or SAMS. Pay attention to CoN news and pierce the AA bubble (5 frigs dont bother thats why I love frigs and have never been sunk by choppers; well once I left Officer solo and he got jumped by like 15 choppers on mideast map and was stuck in the med)

    But key with SF is to keep fresh via Adv level hospital ( 1 ASF / 4 SF) the ASF gets beat the F up. when get to 50 pct send to hospital and heal and swap in new. the 4 SF same thing. get close to 80 pct send one to hospital and swamp in 100 pct health to share with other 3. Think lost 2 whole game as left to patrol possible insurgent cities over night. But if you manage your planes then dont lose them.

    Current game must have > 100 kills (including tanks; MRL; SAMS; mobile radar; attack subs; Attack choppers; (dude had 15 went to bug out and it was classic he had 3 stacks of 5 slowly trying to escape. But they were so close together when attacked 1 stack with my 5 SF it actually engaged all 3 of his stacks. So 5 SF took out 3 choppers per attack. Took out 6 this way before had to focus on ground targets.) So guy had similiar stacks as Teburu except navy.

    For Teberu ... Ill post the screen shots of the battle casualties. France who was head of opposing coalition and 3rd overall (but hey public is meta).

    And Components not high really to me get in Electronics issues as Frigs high Elec too. Armor I build Tank destroyers (which are awesome at holding cities; fast builds; can fly by like day 12ish; low resource and near by if need to fight tanks.)
    Thanks for contributing - I understand what you're saying. Like you, I micromanage my planes.

    To keep the number-crunching manageable, I focused almost solely on SF and HG/AH, and tried not to stray into some of the adjacent topics.

    In the tables above, if you remove the EU HP Bonus, and fly a Tier 2 SF with 23 HP over a Tier 2 SAM (and ignore RNG) variations, the T2 SAM will take a 10HP bite out of an SF that was probably already missing some HP (they are only 100% fresh for their first mission after leaving the Hospital).

    So, let's say a five stack of SF with 100/115 HP left are on a mission to hit something and stumbled on one or two T2 SAMS (That weren't mentioned in the CoN News yet). One hit takes the SF stack down to 90/92 because you lost a plane. :cursing:

    If you do take another hit from that SAM or a different one during that same mission, you're now down to 80/92, and you probably should send those guys back to the hospital now or very soon. :cursing:

    I know you're like me and hate to lose even one plane. Also, regardless of how you might feel about it, I know that when I'm planning to run several missions with five planes before recuperating, and I instead have to abort using the four planes I have left, I'm grumpy.

    I know that I can minimize these problems/losses and reduce trips to a Hospital by using mixed stacks, by using Helis, etc. That is what I start doing after I stumble over the 1 out of 100 players who deploys SAMS. But, until I need pay the costs of doing those things, I invest in other stuff. It's a gamble I take that usually (so far) pays off.

    Regardless none of that makes me any happier about the initial unit-losses, or about the disruptions the first encounter sends rippling through my timetables/plans.

    Switching to the topic of the resources the units consume and the other units that also need those resources: Well, I did run out of mental energy and screwing-around-with-CoN time during that part of my comparisons - I can think of more to do in that vein some day, just not this day.

  • KFGauss wrote:

    Buckeyechamp wrote:

    KFGauss wrote:

    I HATE that SFs basically evaporate when they bump into a SAM/MAA, ASF, or FFs. That's a lot of vulnerabilities.

    I hate that SF compete with other units for my Components income.
    How ... I just took out multiple level 2 SAM (does 8.5 damage which is a 1/3 of a plane). Hit with 1 ASF / 4 SF and the ASF absorbs 4.25 of damage (after first week my air supp just backup and shock absorbers for SF). MAA is a joke as 3 inf do more damage.And dont blindly attack ships or SAMS. Pay attention to CoN news and pierce the AA bubble (5 frigs dont bother thats why I love frigs and have never been sunk by choppers; well once I left Officer solo and he got jumped by like 15 choppers on mideast map and was stuck in the med)

    But key with SF is to keep fresh via Adv level hospital ( 1 ASF / 4 SF) the ASF gets beat the F up. when get to 50 pct send to hospital and heal and swap in new. the 4 SF same thing. get close to 80 pct send one to hospital and swamp in 100 pct health to share with other 3. Think lost 2 whole game as left to patrol possible insurgent cities over night. But if you manage your planes then dont lose them.

    Current game must have > 100 kills (including tanks; MRL; SAMS; mobile radar; attack subs; Attack choppers; (dude had 15 went to bug out and it was classic he had 3 stacks of 5 slowly trying to escape. But they were so close together when attacked 1 stack with my 5 SF it actually engaged all 3 of his stacks. So 5 SF took out 3 choppers per attack. Took out 6 this way before had to focus on ground targets.) So guy had similiar stacks as Teburu except navy.

    For Teberu ... Ill post the screen shots of the battle casualties. France who was head of opposing coalition and 3rd overall (but hey public is meta).

    And Components not high really to me get in Electronics issues as Frigs high Elec too. Armor I build Tank destroyers (which are awesome at holding cities; fast builds; can fly by like day 12ish; low resource and near by if need to fight tanks.)
    Thanks for contributing - I understand what you're saying. Like you, I micromanage my planes.
    To keep the number-crunching manageable, I focused almost solely on SF and HG/AH, and tried not to stray into some of the adjacent topics.

    In the tables above, if you remove the EU HP Bonus, and fly a Tier 2 SF with 23 HP over a Tier 2 SAM (and ignore RNG) variations, the T2 SAM will take a 10HP bite out of an SF that was probably already missing some HP (they are only 100% fresh for their first mission after leaving the Hospital).

    So, let's say a five stack of SF with 100/115 HP left are on a mission to hit something and stumbled on one or two T2 SAMS (That weren't mentioned in the CoN News yet). One hit takes the SF stack down to 90/92 because you lost a plane. :cursing:

    If you do take another hit from that SAM or a different one during that same mission, you're now down to 80/92, and you probably should send those guys back to the hospital now or very soon. :cursing:

    I know you're like me and hate to lose even one plane. Also, regardless of how you might feel about it, I know that when I'm planning to run several missions with five planes before recuperating, and I instead have to abort using the four planes I have left, I'm grumpy.

    I know that I can minimize these problems/losses and reduce trips to a Hospital by using mixed stacks, by using Helis, etc. That is what I start doing after I stumble over the 1 out of 100 players who deploys SAMS. But, until I need pay the costs of doing those things, I invest in other stuff. It's a gamble I take that usually (so far) pays off.

    Regardless none of that makes me any happier about the initial unit-losses, or about the disruptions the first encounter sends rippling through my timetables/plans.

    Switching to the topic of the resources the units consume and the other units that also need those resources: Well, I did run out of mental energy and screwing-around-with-CoN time during that part of my comparisons - I can think of more to do in that vein some day, just not this day.
    untrue.. lvl 2 is 8.5 hp; I knows this as just defeated like 4 or 5 of them with zero losses; as you also smash in some CMs at same time; which cant do with helos. and you patrol strike them. or like said mix in asf. people just dont know how to use planes... you dont smash them against a rock.

    and since anna noted.. not your thread but thanks for saying what we can say on others threads...think PNG tried that btw where did he go.

    But neither a GS or AH can do a third of what a SF can. I just destroyed 15 AH this game via SF with zero losses...lol. could any amount of AH kill even 1 SF?
    "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him "

    aka ...The killer formerly known as BuckeyeChamp

    The post was edited 1 time, last by The Pale Rider ().

  • Buckeyechamp wrote:

    untrue.. lvl 2 is 8.5 hp; I knows this as just defeated like 4 or 5 of them with zero losses; as you also smash in some CMs at same time; which cant do with helos. and you patrol strike them. or like said mix in asf. people just dont know how to use planes... you dont smash them against a rock.
    and since anna noted.. not your thread but thanks for saying what we can say on others threads...think PNG tried that btw where did he go.

    But neither a GS or AH can do a third of what a SF can. I just destroyed 15 AH this game via SF with zero losses...lol. could any amount of AH kill even 1 SF?
    Well if I misread the SAM strength, and if the difference we're talking about isn't a Doctrine difference, and if you're sure you're looking at the Tier 2 (not level 2) SAM stats, then I'll need to correct my tables. The expired game I was getting my numbers from isn't available any more.

    No one is disagreeing with your bigger picture opinions (at least I'm not). That said, what I wrote is still true for me. If a 5 SF stack at 100/115 HP takes an 8.5 HP hit, I've lost a plane and I'm grumpy. I'm grumpy because I lost a plane, and I'm grumpy because I now have to be more careful and I have to adjust my plans.

    The numbers (not my opinion) tell me that Helis are useful, and that SF are useful. That's my #1 conclusion.

  • KFGauss wrote:

    Well if I misread the SAM strength, and if the difference we're talking about isn't a Doctrine difference, and if you're sure you're looking at the Tier 2 (not level 2) SAM stats, then I'll need to correct my tables. The expired game I was getting my numbers from isn't available any more.
    No one is disagreeing with your bigger picture opinions (at least I'm not). That said, what I wrote is still true for me. If a 5 SF stack at 100/115 HP takes an 8.5 HP hit, I've lost a plane and I'm grumpy. I'm grumpy because I lost a plane, and I'm grumpy because I now have to be more careful and I have to adjust my plans.

    The numbers (not my opinion) tell me that Helis are useful, and that SF are useful. That's my #1 conclusion.
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  • About the ASF, chopper argument, I have a fairly (maybe?) good example. Right now I have a game which Italy has like 60 units, atleast half of it were attack and gunship helis, i built a lot of ASFs and literally killed all of them (i think?), all his other ASFs were on the ground and not stacked with helis. My EAAs, SFs and even MBTs killed them on the ground in the early days of our war. BTW i betrayed him so i know how much units he had.
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