Submarines - Recon Re-Work Idea

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    • Submarines - Recon Re-Work Idea

      Hey Everyone,

      Let me know your thoughts on this submarine idea below. Keep in mind, the goal here is not to buff submarines or make them OP, but to help make them more realistic and in line with how current militaries implement submarines into their naval strategy in today's modern warfare.

      Modern submarines serving today's global navies are given two primary mission objectives:

      1) Use as a mobile under-sea stealth missile platform for ballistic, cruise, and/ or nuclear missiles.

      2) Use as forward deployed undetected reconnaissance and intelligence gathering platforms.

      CoN does a great job capturing the former in game with the ballistic missile submarines. It is the latter objective, reconnaissance and intelligence gathering that I could use a rework.

      CoN as in the real world offers two types of submarines, ballistic missile submarines and attack submarines. The ballistic missiles submarines are fine as is, so no need to discuss them further.

      The attack submarines could use a re-work to make them focus more on reconnaissance and intelligence gathering like submarines deployed around the world today.

      Increasing sight range and greatly boosting sonar range (to detect all ships and subs) would help balance out attack subs. To ensure this is not a buff you could increase missile reload time as a counter.

      This would make attack subs (even though they are called "attack" subs) much more like mobile reconnaissance subs. Able to sit off of enemy coasts and monitor troop movement undetected. Or position in key shipping lanes and spot all troops in the area.

      In modern navel strategy intelligence gathering is the primary mission for attack subs around the planet. While they are called attack subs, and are fully capable in attacking surface vessels or cities they are mainly used for:

      *Monitoring communication channels
      *Tracking ship movements
      *Electronic warfare
      *Missile detection and deterrent

      And finally if needed, actual vessel vs vessel attack.

      Back to CoN, I would not build an attack sub to attack anything. Destroyer's are much more efficient at both land and sea attacks. I would also not build an attack sub for reconnaissance. Naval AWACS are far better suited. I would not build an attack sub for missile deployment, as the ballistic missile subs fill that role.

      In fact currently there is no good reason to build attack subs in game. They don't really have a useful role.

      Giving them advanced reconnaissance and intelligence gathering, like a naval version of ground radar or AWACS, would make them useful, more realistic, but not overpowered.

      Let me know your thoughts.

      Long Live Cuba
      Long Live Cuba
    • But submarines are exceptional at open sea naval combat, especially against Cruisers. Another benefit is that you can't spam missiles at attack subs, as you could at destroyers.

      Another critique is why boost radar range when like you said you could just build AWACs? AWACs are faster and more useable on a larger scale.
      (*Why make slower-moving, only sea-bound vessels for large radar when you could just fly it?*)

      I think these changes would give an unnecessary buff to attack subs as they are already powerful in-game at maintaining naval superiority, giving them huge boosts to sonar and sight range would absolutely be OP.
    • I agree the goal is not to make them over powered. Just more of a multi use platform.

      Do you use attack subs for deep sea combat frequently? I have not run into that much. Unless someone just happened to cross paths with me. I feel like 90% of naval battles are in coastal waters, making me less likely to use an attack sub.

      As to why a "recon" sub over an AWACS, the sub would remain hidden, and could attack if need be. The sub could use stealth and sit in wait, while providing a vast amount of Intel. Unlike an AWCS which alerts/ declares war on enemy territory, is easily seen, and can not attack.

      This would make the enemy more inclined to hunt down subs as well.

      Appreciate your feedback!
      Long Live Cuba
    • Yes and lots of experienced players do that I've played with/against, they are arguably the best naval unit at deep-sea combat, especially in the later period of a match (never mind combining with sub cmmdr or elite AIP subs).
      (I appreciate you more because you are creating new ideas to improve the experience of the game but some love to criticize instead.)

      Subs with recon abilities might seem like a fair improvement but it is just unnecessary, you're only making a strong vessel even stronger. I know you probably don't run into them often, but you'll see what happens when you do, especially against active players.

      Attack subs with cruise missiles at open sea (25% damage boost) supported by AWACs to detect incoming naval ships is a massacre in process, your suggestion would make AWACs unnecessary making subs even easier to use.

      (Cuba is a great nation to play with submarines as an example, China the best because of 2-3 electronic cities)

    • I appreciate the creativity behind the OP idea, but this game isn't about realism first. It's about unit balance first, and the attack sub is the balance for the destroyer. And another thing to keep in mind Castro, just because you are not into unrestricted submarine warfare, does not mean that others are not.
      *** The Creator of Zombie Farming ***
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    • Naval warfare happens normally at max range of attack range, so increasing sight range will never give any benefit, if you do not want to make it 100 or even bigger at max level, which would be quite a ridiculous sight range.

      Any radar range increase would be still inferior to using an AWACS for recon, at least against other ships.
      NPAs against subs will be also still be a better option, because they have more flexible move paths and can scout faster anyway.
    • Here we are again.
      Reasons for building attack sub:
      Good counter to cruiser spam noobs in public games
      Launching missiles at land glued enemies and laughing at them building maxed sams thinking it's a stealth aircraft issue

      Reasons NOT for building attack subs:
      Trying to have them "scout" shallow waters and being obliterated by a lvl 1 corvette
      Trying to hit and run people(again, advanced topic, but real issue) due to LOW speed
      Trying to actually use them to fight anything other than UNGUARDED capital ships
      Using them without an officer

      Mobile feature: bug that allows bms to be fired into the ocean
      Hit and run: The process of taking advantage of server delay to hit enemy at max range and then to run out of enemy's return fire range
      Capital ship: Cruiser, Carrier, or Unguarded transport
      "Le patriotisme, c'est aimer son pays. Le nationalisme, c'est détester celui des autres."-Charles De Gaulle, Leader of Free France in World War 2.
      English: "Patriotism is to love your country. Nationalism is hating that of others."
    • "Back to CoN, I would not build an attack sub to attack anything. Destroyer's are much more efficient at both land and sea attacks"

      Sweet sweet summer child :D

      Attack Subs is meta in mid-late. Best individual naval unit in the whole fleet !
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.
    • Subs alone are very easy to kill, something shared by a lot of units that are incredibly efficient at their role. They compensate by huge vulnerabilities on other sides.

      But to summarise, in late game (aka multiple unit synergies and fleets) and in the hands of competent people, Destroyers cease to work as a Sub counter, they just get rekt consistantly by the Subs. It's pretty amazing in its own right, to the point i would like to see the T3 Destroyer pack more anti-sub punch in order to remain "a counter".
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.
    • kurtvonstein wrote:

      well i noticed that max up submarines are bastard in respect to the damage they. deal...then again naval bombers and its game over...

      As i said : Alone they are pretty easy to kill. In the same way that naval bombers aren't actually that great in air to air combat.
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.