Building ASW Helos is stupid, fight me!

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    • Building ASW Helos is stupid, fight me!

      Why build ASW subs? It's just stupid. The kinda stupid that thinks eating Tide Pods is a good idea. The kinda stupid that jams the fork in the electrical outlet.
      WHY?

      Say I need to hunt subs, and hunting subs is really the only thing I'd do with them, because if I wanted to destroy ships, I'd use my own Navy. But, OK, hunting subs ... if I want to hunt subs, I'd build NPAs. Because even tho ASW helos stats vs subs are better, they suck as they are slow and end up with less detection range (half), and have less range period, ending up with 1/7th the range of NPAs. The tradeoff of almost double damage vs subs isn't worth it since subs are slow and once you find them, it's pretty easy to reacquire them. FINDING them is the toughy, and that's where extra range comes in. So ASW Helos are just Naval AWACS in another skin.
      *** The Creator of Zombie Farming ***
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    • i didn't use it to hunt subi use them to counter Frigate
      my last game im in really that desperate
      enemy destroy all my port, they having full frigate and made my entire airforce useless
      I hold them on land long enough to pump out ASW heli and combine stack with attack heli
      and go around sink their fleet, total kill count around 25 ships and 2 missiles sub. around 10 of them are frigate

      and yes lmao ASW heli do really need buff
      This post was made by Leader of the Church of ROAD
    • playbabe wrote:

      i didn't use it to hunt subi use them to counter Frigate
      my last game im in really that desperate
      enemy destroy all my port, they having full frigate and made my entire airforce useless
      I hold them on land long enough to pump out ASW heli and combine stack with attack heli
      and go around sink their fleet, total kill count around 25 ships and 2 missiles sub. around 10 of them are frigate

      and yes lmao ASW heli do really need buff
      WELL, 1.) I can't imagine being in this situation as almost always, my navy is my prime area of concentration, so it is usually the biggest, and if it's not, the ensuing naval battles would decimate all fleets concerned enough that no one could go around port smashing the other. 2.) using my DoD account I probably would have tried to deal with it using Elite and Attack Helos.

      But, I can see how, IF you got yourself in this unforgivable situation, the plan you described would be useful.

      So OK, let me amend the one statement:
      "Why build ASW subs? It's just stupid, unless you are stupid and get all your ports smashed"
      *** The Creator of Zombie Farming ***
      The KING of CoN News!!!
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      "Death comes to us all. Shall I deal you in?" - DoD
    • Dealer of Death wrote:

      So OK, let me amend the one statement:
      "Why build ASW subs? It's just stupid, unless you are stupid and get all your ports smashed"
      They are cheaper than NPAs and only need a L2 airbase. You can generally build more of them and more quickly. They are the only aircraft that are any use for attacking surface fleets. NPAs may be faster and carry more attacking punch, but they also die very fast and are expensive to replace. You can't leave NPAs out on patrol while you aren't watching, because if they find a surface fleet on radar they'll get killed. Helicopters can find things on their radar without being immediately attacked and destroyed by whatever it is they found: they don't need to be baby-sat as much.

      ASW Helis can't replace having a navy, but they can allow you to have a smaller navy without sacrificing too much defensive power. And they're a damn sight cheaper than ships. I'd be interested in a test, actually - how much would you normally spend on your navy by, say, Day 30? (Research, Ports, Mobilization) And how many ASW Helis could you have for that same cost?
    • do u ever went to sleep after checking all radar, seeing no enemy coming, having stack of cruisers guarding port and wake up seeing half homeland gone?

      yeah that's me

      How could I improve on this? sleepless ? am i now stupid because I want to sleep? am I stupid because I don't have enough units to guard my homeland while im sleep?
      This post was made by Leader of the Church of ROAD
    • WalterChang wrote:

      Dealer of Death wrote:

      So OK, let me amend the one statement:
      "Why build ASW subs? It's just stupid, unless you are stupid and get all your ports smashed"
      They are cheaper than NPAs and only need a L2 airbase. You can generally build more of them and more quickly. They are the only aircraft that are any use for attacking surface fleets. NPAs may be faster and carry more attacking punch, but they also die very fast and are expensive to replace. You can't leave NPAs out on patrol while you aren't watching, because if they find a surface fleet on radar they'll get killed. Helicopters can find things on their radar without being immediately attacked and destroyed by whatever it is they found: they don't need to be baby-sat as much.
      ASW Helis can't replace having a navy, but they can allow you to have a smaller navy without sacrificing too much defensive power. And they're a damn sight cheaper than ships. I'd be interested in a test, actually - how much would you normally spend on your navy by, say, Day 30? (Research, Ports, Mobilization) And how many ASW Helis could you have for that same cost?
      WRONG.

      As I said, I only use NPAs to hunt subs, at which they are superior by far to the ASW, and the the ASW only has one other possible role if you are stupid and get your ports crushed. NPAs are also only good for hunting subs and only an idiot would use them where they are likely to encounter ASFs or Frigates and Cruisers

      Simply put, I find a guy using ASW, I'm going after him, because likely he is as smart as building local industries in provinces with no resources.
      *** The Creator of Zombie Farming ***
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      "Death comes to us all. Shall I deal you in?" - DoD
    • Dealer of Death wrote:


      WRONG.
      As I said, I only use NPAs to hunt subs, at which they are superior by far to the ASW, and the the ASW only has one other possible role if you are stupid and get your ports crushed. NPAs are also only good for hunting subs and only an idiot would use them where they are likely to encounter ASFs or Frigates and Cruisers

      Simply put, I find a guy using ASW, I'm going after him, because likely he is as smart as building local industries in provinces with no resources.

      You might be hunting subs, but that doesn't mean you won't find surface fleets instead. If your NPAs do find a surface fleet, they will be dead before you can react. ASW Helis can get away with it, because the ships can't detect them so easily or from so far away.

      If you level up your ASW Helis to 5 or 6, then they can actually do a decent job on surface fleets. I think this makes them a good support unit for your navy.
    • Dealer of Death wrote:

      WalterChang wrote:

      Dealer of Death wrote:

      So OK, let me amend the one statement:
      "Why build ASW subs? It's just stupid, unless you are stupid and get all your ports smashed"
      They are cheaper than NPAs and only need a L2 airbase. You can generally build more of them and more quickly. They are the only aircraft that are any use for attacking surface fleets. NPAs may be faster and carry more attacking punch, but they also die very fast and are expensive to replace. You can't leave NPAs out on patrol while you aren't watching, because if they find a surface fleet on radar they'll get killed. Helicopters can find things on their radar without being immediately attacked and destroyed by whatever it is they found: they don't need to be baby-sat as much.ASW Helis can't replace having a navy, but they can allow you to have a smaller navy without sacrificing too much defensive power. And they're a damn sight cheaper than ships. I'd be interested in a test, actually - how much would you normally spend on your navy by, say, Day 30? (Research, Ports, Mobilization) And how many ASW Helis could you have for that same cost?
      WRONG.
      As I said, I only use NPAs to hunt subs, at which they are superior by far to the ASW, and the the ASW only has one other possible role if you are stupid and get your ports crushed. NPAs are also only good for hunting subs and only an idiot would use them where they are likely to encounter ASFs or Frigates and Cruisers

      Simply put, I find a guy using ASW, I'm going after him, because likely he is as smart as building local industries in provinces with no resources.
      Only an idiot would leave his subs open without any kind of protection though?
    • In the unlikely scenario of a massive naval battle happening day 100 with nearly endless resources at disposal, including aircraft carriers, ASW become pretty important as a auxiliary anti-sub.


      It's all that i could find, to say "still more useful than the naval awacs" :D
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.
    • Alright I will fight you with ASW Helios DoD let's go! Haha

      On a more serious note, I have not yet in my CON career tried ASW. They seem like the premier sub hunters with their massive 15 atk against subs, it's on par with Destroyers at max. I have however fallen in love with NPA, it's such a versatile unit and it's very unexpected for most people to encounter. My only improvement would be to give it normal radar as well as the advanced naval radar it has because it's weird it's a patrol unit but only has a naval only radar.
    • Hmmm, would the ASW helicopter be more of an asset if it could be deployed from a cruiser or destroyer?

      What I am thinking is that the destroyer or cruiser would need to be leveled up on the research tree where it could land and deploy helicopters.

      Maybe a destroyer could carry one at a certain level and maybe two when leveled up later?
      Or, along the same lines a cruiser could carry two once the cruiser is leveled up?

      But I must say, I have never used the ASW helicopter. Mainly because of the short aerial patrol range and I would want to use them to hunt for boomer subs which have a greater strike range with their ballistic missiles.

      I have used the NPA against ships and subs alike. And the NPA are also effective in patrolling key sea routes or bottle necks.
    • i once did asw helis because i was venezuela and low on components to maintain a big fleet. My elite helis where stuck in a big asia invasion and because of the stupid bug that airplanes dont attack naval contacts on patrol i had to fly closer to enemie fleet. And becuse my lcl 6 naval patrol have to take 3 blows while attacking i needed some hitpoint bait.
      @Dorado If you Close the Forum and move everything to Discord you will lose my Feedback for sure.
    • WalterChang wrote:

      Im On Smoko wrote:

      And the NPA are also effective in patrolling key sea routes or bottle necks.
      Do you not find that if an enemy sails ships near them while they're patrolling, they just get completely annihilated?
      Walter,

      I keep a close eye on the NPA when I set them out to patrol. I pull them back when I am asleep or AFK.
      It has been awhile since I used them but if I recall properly, I could use them to ID a naval contact and asses the numbers to see if they could survive an attack or not. Or recall my NPAs on patrol to an airbase / field have them refuel and stack them for better numbers for an attack. Or keep the NPA out of range, shadow the naval contact and call my navy or other air assets over to intercept and then use the NPA as a secondary attack once the opponents ships have been damaged enough.

      But yes, they are easy targets when they are not in stacks and I have lost them to ships. However, then I know if an opponent is coming for my home cities. I would rather loose a NPA than a home city.

      What has been your experience with NPAs?
    • Im On Smoko wrote:

      What has been your experience with NPAs?
      They fucking die as soon as a ship goes near them! (not even that near, either!)

      Ships (and SAMs) seem to be able to detect and attack aircraft that are well outside their own given radar and attack ranges. I don't know why this is, but I suspect it's to do with overlapping radiuses. The effect is that some Fleet with a fixed-wing attack value will be sailing along, and suddenly they'll see an aerial radar contact about twice the distance away than the edge of their own radar range. And they'll start attacking it, even though it should be well out of their range. The poor old aircraft will not a have a clue where the attack is coming from, and they won't be able to shoot back. And they will die.

      Unless this has changed in the last few months, something is very broken in the relationship between fixed wing aircraft and AA envelopes, and it renders any anti-ship fixed wings utterly worthless (for attacks, that is - they just about work as suicide spotter units).

      Now, back to the ASW helis: they don't have a radar signature that can be detected by most ships, so they generally don't have this happen to them. That's why I find them useful. I also think that having a stack or 2 of ASW Helis at level 5 or 6 is good support for your own navy in a defensive capacity. Because they are much cheaper than ships, you can maintain an effective naval defence without spending nearly so much; and they can cover a lot more ocean in a much shorter time than can your surface fleets - this allows you to get more fire-power into a battle more quickly, if one of your navy stacks gets attacked, than you could if you sent another fleet to support it. You can't use NPAs for this, because... they fucking die!
    • If the patrol radius of a unit cuts with the radar range of a different unit, they get seen as a radar dot. If the patrol radius cuts with the sight range of a unit they get even revealed.
      If the patrol radius cuts with the AA radius of a unit, the AA unit can fire.

      They changed it quite a while ago when the made the huge overhaul for radar and stealth.
    • Kalrakh wrote:

      If the patrol radius of a unit cuts with the radar range of a different unit, they get seen as a radar dot. If the patrol radius cuts with the sight range of a unit they get even revealed.
      If the patrol radius cuts with the AA radius of a unit, the AA unit can fire.

      They changed it quite a while ago when the made the huge overhaul for radar and stealth.
      That's what I suspected, thanks.

      The part that I don't understand the logic behind is why it's so one-sided. The AA can detect, identify and attack air units that are outside of their range. Air units can't. When an air unit gets attacked like this, they don't know where the attack is coming from, they don't know what it is, and they can't shoot back. I just don't get it. Why should AA units get such a huge advantage?