Day 1 guide

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    • JS - Your sentences are in white here. Mine are in green. The item that really caught my eye was where you wrote that "vast and quick expansions . . . results in higher casualties and unit losses . . . less troops . . . to do any serious defence . . . mid-game attacking force is delayed . . ."

      CRVs are lame at scouting AI, just use Radar/ASf, AIs barely use ASfs and at the start of the game the ai units stay in cities. If they do however separate than it’ll be random 1 inf/CRV/AFV sitting in random border Provinces
      On Day 1 through Day N CRVs in a land stack can see 60% farther than similar units, can identify the composition of the stacks they see, and can reveal stealth units. They are also strong attackers in the first few days and can be airlifted on Day 1.

      Ground Radars don't detect infantry (Low signatures) until Day 14 + 30 hours.
      Ground Radars are slow and can't be airlifted until Day 14 + 30 hours.
      Ground Radars don't detect stealth units or reveal stack compositions until Day 25 + 36 hours.
      Ground Radars contribute just a tiny bit more than zero to a stack's combat strength and similarly do roughly zero to help babysit a newly captured city.
      I know that plenty of players would rather sell one of their children than play CoN without their Ground Radars, but Ground Radars' advantage (range) doesn't make them superior to a leftover CRV (that was already useful) in all roles.

      ASF fly far and fast - However remembering what they saw and where they saw it is something of a pain in the neck.
      ASF tell you whether Infantry, Support, Armor, or Air units are present when they spot something, but that's all.
      In comparison, a CRV is pretty good at not bumping into opponents by accident, and identifies exactly what's in opposing stacks. From Day 1 until the game ends that's handy (not essential, but handy) because players who abandon countries often move their starting units around early in the game, or leave behind all manner of unit types, numbers and tech levels if they abandon them later in the game. A CRV that was an early-game attacker can be given a new purpose as a handy set of Anti-AI eyes (and captured-city babysitter) later in the game. The same is true when fighting active opponents, but less important.



      CRVs ok at somewhat defending, NGs are so much cheaper and when mixed with infantry and maybe bunkers( long term investment + boost morale) is a better strat for defence.
      (Saves resource for non melee units, not to mention 1 bunker ==1 CRV **almost)
      I agree that NG are the preferred choice for defending (and for a few other uses).
      That's why I wrote only about using CRVs for early-game (Days 1 through 5-ish) attacking, and for making abandoned-country clean-ups easier once the CRVs' early-game-attacker role ended.


      Just make sure you get SPf by day 10-14 for scouting those neighbour enemies
      Usually if someone has a super big stack, they usually only have a few of those “stacks” eg 2-3 early game and thus if they have such big stacks they probably are aiming it at destroying you, so you still end up having to fight them anyway, whether you like it or not.
      Using Special Forces to clean up a abandoned country or for similar purposes sounds like a waste of an expensive unit mid-game unit.
      If (it's a big "if") I had leftover CRVs and I had some recently built SPFs (that required a Level 3 Army Base, an Air Base, components and electronics, and Day 6 + 29 hours of research), and if I had a current or future active-opponent somewhere, I know which units I would probably use for clean-up duty, and which I would send to the active front.
      Comparing giving CRVs a second purpose(s) with using new SPFs really isn't an useful comparison IMO.



      Early game vast and quick expansions is something i’m not a fan of as it results in higher casualties and unit losses a long with less troops back at home to do any serious defence. Also means that you’re main mid game attacking force is delayed in production and research as more resources are pumped into the quick expansion effort

      Pale Rider, and to a lesser extent I, are two recent advocates of expanding fast and never slowing down IN PUBLIC MAPS. We do it to win and win quickly. Even though winning a public game isn't much to brag about, it can be mildly satisfying when done well. We trade off the risk of an occasional failure against the ability to win quickly/frequently.
      Forum users with more experience than PR or I generally agree that meeting good opponents in public games is rare, and that you can generally blitz through public games without being very cautious.

      PR and I have both posted records of how rapid/constant expansion worked out in a variety of maps against both decent(ish) and weak (PUBLIC GAME) opponents.
      I more than PR have emphasized that doing it is a bet that you're unlikely to encounter strong opponents in public games. Regardless, when it's done with a little foresight, you'll have time to adapt if you encounter a talented opponent.

      Neither PR nor I suffer higher casualties than other players. In fact the opposite is true. He and I both detest losing any units because that usually means we screwed up (and not that our opponent was clever).
      Neither PR nor I find that our mid-game attacking forces are delayed because our mid-game attacking forces are (to a first approximation) simply higher-tech versions and more of our Day 5-10 attacking forces.
      PR and I also push hard to have game outcomes decided by about Day 30. I'm not sure when mid-game typically begins for you, but for us I'd say it starts somewhere in the Day 15-20 range.
      In one recent game I didn't lose a single unit until Day 16, and that day's losses were because I was careless. That was one of the more challenging games I've played (FYI: My total game count is fairly low).

      Spending one research project and both creating Army Bases and mobilizing CRVs out of them is expensive and does delay having something else (exactly what gets delayed depends on the player), so if someone's going to do it, they need to be sure a high-probability payoff (such as an opportunity to steamroll a couple of playable countries) is present and that they will be happy to trade the delay for the payoff.


      The bulk of my defense (and I'm pretty sure that PR would say the same) is a good (PUBLIC GAME) offense. I try to take out threats before they can truly threaten me, and I put plenty of buffer zone between myself and land threats. In PUBLIC GAMES this works very well so far. Mobilizing CRVs for static defenses doesn't even cross my mind.

      Here are some of the game histories/descriptions that PR, I and Kurt reported here in the forum. I think it's correct to say that Kurt is a fast-expansion player.

      BGUSA in 30 days as Nicaragua - Pale Rider

      Battleground USA - Nicaragua Journal / Guide to Victory with one of the smallest countries in 20 days

      WW3 in 30 Days by Kurt
      What's your ACTUAL Day 5, 10, 15, 20, ... Order of Battle (OOB)

      WW3 - Coalition of friends - Trivial losses and a 45? day victory
      What's your ACTUAL Day 5, 10, 15, 20, ... Order of Battle (OOB)

      Pacific Theater - 18 Day victory by gobbling up abandoned countries
      CoN NEW MAP: PACIFIC THEATER MAP
      What's your ACTUAL Day 5, 10, 15, 20, ... Order of Battle (OOB)

      Sengoku - 35 day victory against various active opponents - Rapidly expanding player loses first unit on Day 16 and has VPs = 3.5X 2nd place player
      New map, Sengoku

      The post was edited 4 times, last by KFGauss ().

    • I think CRVs are very valuable in the early game (and moderately valuable later on), but that doesn't mean I would spam them on Day 1 - I think it's a total waste of resources and mobilization time. A general rule for me would probably be: if I start with 1 CRV, then I'd research them on Day 1 and build maybe 2 or 3 more of them, probably sequentially rather than at once; if I start with 2 CRVs, I'd probably just make do with them and spend the research resources on something else.

      I'm not convinced that mass-production of CRVs on Day 1 really helps you to expand that much quicker than mass producing NGs does. The main reason for this is mobilization time: ~20 hours for each CRV; ~7 hours for each NG).

      shrek6satan wrote:

      since this is day 1 thread what do you guys do when an entire coalition decides to team up to defeat you on day 1? Like do you try to fight on or call it quits?
      I would go so far as to actively provoke this situation. It is the fastest way to expand in the first couple of days, as far as I can see.
      You get some nearby idiots to attack you, absorb their invasions using city Bunkers and Combat Outposts (depending on terrain), with your starting units plus new NGs and maybe a couple of extra CRVs, and then counter-attack quickly into their empty cities.


      And just an extra point on CRVs: if I'm researching them at all, then I'll usually get them up to level 3 at the earliest opportunity (Day 8). This gives them air-assault and allows you to use them as a kind of poor-man's SpF unit: air-assaulting them quickly in and out of positions to check enemy stack compositions, rapid-response defensive reinforcement, or even air-assaulting a group of them on top of a weak infantry stack as an effective way of clearing out cities quickly (works well in combo with Airborne Inf).
    • So after reading I agree with a lot of you’re points

      I AGREE, that when u quick expand you better have someone to cover you’re back to prevent someone from taking advantage of you’re quick expansion.

      However CRVs shld and only be used at lvl 1, beyond that and they’re useless.
      Some of the games you quoted had players not making any or little CRVs, which isn’t cost effective for the amount of resources to research it. Although ASf cannot identify the unit’s composition, its not hard to guess it by the possible strategies the player has taken and the amount of defence damage it had done to you’re Strike force. Either way if you’re attacking it or within visual range of it, something ain’t right and that dude (if its a huge stack may end up invading.)

      So possibly this is why CRV is useful because it helps to see those bother troops and see if he’s a threat, but most of the time I’ll just prepare a defence and if they ever do attack I’ll be ready.

      By upgrading CRVs up you’re basically losing out, for you to be able to air assult as wherever you like must show you’re opponents airforce is absolutely grounded or you’re fighting melee players with bad lvl 1 ASFs
    • japan samurai wrote:

      So after reading I agree with a lot of you’re points

      I AGREE, that when u quick expand you better have someone to cover you’re back to prevent someone from taking advantage of you’re quick expansion.
      I've been equally successful in my PUBLIC games with and without friends or allies covering my back - I do pay careful attention to what my neighbors are doing - I'm pretty sure Pale Rider and Kurtvonstein would agree.

      However CRVs shld and only be used at lvl 1, beyond that and they’re useless.
      I don't think anyone suggested raising them above level 1 - In a game in which I built them, I might do some research to speed them up, but otherwise level 1 sounds good.

      Some of the games you quoted had players not making any or little CRVs, which isn’t cost effective for the amount of resources to research it.
      Sure - My reason for listing those game descriptions was to emphasize rapid expansion, not whether using CRVs did or didn't make sense in any of them.

      Although ASf cannot identify the unit’s composition, its not hard to guess it by the possible strategies the player has taken and the amount of defence damage it had done to you’re Strike force.
      I wrote exactly the same thing, and pointed out that while using the attack-to-find-out method is viable, it's also sloppier than using CRVs, if you have some CRVs to throw at the situation.

      Either way if you’re attacking it or within visual range of it, something ain’t right and that dude (if its a huge stack may end up invading.)
      You and I need to stick to one context or be clear when we switch from discussing one to discussing another - If you're clearing out an abandoned country, getting within visual range of the opposing stack is perfectly fine and is usually a good idea, especially if you have a few leftover CRVs handy - On the other hand, if you're moving toward an active opponent's stack, A) common sense applies, and B) Knowing that opposing stack's composition doesn't hurt if you happen to have a leftover CRV handy.

      So possibly this is why CRV is useful because it helps to see those bother troops and see if he’s a threat, but most of the time I’ll just prepare a defence and if they ever do attack I’ll be ready.
      Sure - And, quickly knowing/seeing the difference between a single attacking unit and a stack of ten attacking units seems mildly useful as you prepare that proper defence - We seem to be agreeing that this is a way in which leftover CRVs can be handy.

      By upgrading CRVs up you’re basically losing out, for you to be able to air assult as wherever you like must show you’re opponents airforce is absolutely grounded or you’re fighting melee players with bad lvl 1 ASFs
      I don't think anyone recommended upgrading CRVs or even hinted at using their air assault abilities.
      I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth if I write that the bottom line appears to be substantial agreement that
      1. Rapid solo (or collaborative) early/continuous expansion combined with ordinary common sense doesn't create excess friendly casualties or hamper unit production (and, done correctly that quick expansion accelerates unit production).
      2. Building some CRVs early for early rapid expansion (via intelligent/judicious melee attacks) can work out well - Deciding whether to do it is generally a matter of personal preference.
      3. If early CRVs are used for expansion, once their early value wanes, they can still be useful. Weighing the value of those later uses is part of deciding whether a player wants to use CRVs for rapid expansion initially.

      These three statements are why I don't belittle players who build a few CRVs early on and use them sensibly then and later.

      The post was edited 3 times, last by KFGauss ().

    • What I meant by quick expansion would be safer if you had someone cover you’re back. I once played as Romania and saw poland Quickly rapidly expand into Belarus,
      I took this to my advantage and striked him through Ukraine and managed to grab:
      —his capital
      —his second airbase base for SF
      —his electronics City
      —His fuel city
      —a component and Supply producing city (which is 2nd airbase)
      I managed to cripple his airforce and whilst I was mostly engaging using melee since i lacked close air support capability.
      My doom and fate was sealed when his ally, germany intervened , sending in his entire army ( at least 3 stacks of units)
      Where each stack took up 1-2MAA, 3-5 Inf , and a few CRV.
      He also had a couple of NGs capturing back stolen provinces.

      If my then friend (befriending Germany) attacked germany, that entire coalition woukd have been doomed, because then germany had invested heavily into MAAs and Inf along with huge sums of his military to help out poland, leaving his cities very vulnerable
      That man whom I attacked would recover all his cities and go on to win that FP game at about day 80 since everyone went afk afterwards (including his ally, which he would betray to win game).
    • day 1 build 3 crv. day 2 you have a doomstack with 5 crv, 4 inf and 1 NG(for damage distribution).
      This is enough to steamroll most unattentive players without taking casualties.

      woth the rest of
      my start reaources i build 1-2 maaguns. just in case anyone try’s anything funny.
      Alle sagten: Das geht nicht. Dann kam einer, der wusste das nicht und hat es einfach gemacht.

      The post was edited 3 times, last by kurtvonstein ().

    • kurtvonstein wrote:

      1. MAA defend me when I am offline
      2. Cause I dont spam infantry I have supply and components left
      3. I need the electronics for good toys.
      Cannot argue with any of that.

      I just think that as a Day 1 option, it doesn't repay/justify its resource cost in the early game often enough to make it worth it. Especially given that they only take 30 minutes to research, you can get them up and running in your overall build as and when you need them, rather than building them as a rule for rare contingencies.
    • well its a life insurance same as TDS. I only upgrade 2-3 core cities with army base. and thise are lvled up to 3 and 4 ASAP. No use wasting preciuoa resources and build 6-7 armybases if on day 2 you run out of resources and can only have 2 of them running 24/7 anyway.
      so i might as well build an aagun as soon as first recon is done(have to wait for industry anyway). its not really day 1. but it sacres curious neighbours soying with their asf. and 2 aaguns deal 16 damage to a SF. Most player go hunting other prey ones they get a bloody nose.
      Alle sagten: Das geht nicht. Dann kam einer, der wusste das nicht und hat es einfach gemacht.
    • kurtvonstein wrote:

      1. MAA defend me when I am offline
      2. Cause I dont spam infantry I have supply and components left
      3. I need the electronics for good toys.
      Also gives some form of armoured HP to the defending stack…even though its really expensive and useless.
      other than that Most of the time I don’t research it, waste of Rares to go for Heli strat and would rather use those rares getting stronger Armoured support unit

      usually MBTs sound nice to me because they absorb SF damage pretty nice, good to understand enemy’s defence capability and takes 3days in water to heal 25hp.

      —AA guns try to get them going by day 10-13. From then on 1-2 every day before progressing to another city to build AA gun, then start alternating AA and MRL/TDS. (SPF should be produced from a single committed city)
      By day 25-30 should have 20 SAMs at lvl 3-4 min
    • japan samurai wrote:

      kurtvonstein wrote:

      1. MAA defend me when I am offline
      2. Cause I dont spam infantry I have supply and components left
      3. I need the electronics for good toys.
      Also gives some form of armoured HP to the defending stack…even though its really expensive and useless. other than that Most of the time I don’t research it, waste of Rares to go for Heli strat and would rather use those rares getting stronger Armoured support unit

      usually MBTs sound nice to me because they absorb SF damage pretty nice, good to understand enemy’s defence capability and takes 3days in water to heal 25hp.

      —AA guns try to get them going by day 10-13. From then on 1-2 every day before progressing to another city to build AA gun, then start alternating AA and MRL/TDS. (SPF should be produced from a single committed city)
      By day 25-30 should have 20 SAMs at lvl 3-4 min
      That is, if you're an Armor Addict. Personally I stay away from that class in general, except of course, if someone else is using armor, in which case I will make TDs.
    • japan samurai wrote:

      . . .

      usually MBTs sound nice to me because they absorb SF damage pretty nice, good to understand enemy’s defence capability and takes 3days in water to heal 25hp.

      —AA guns try to get them going by day 10-13. From then on 1-2 every day before progressing to another city to build AA gun, then start alternating AA and MRL/TDS. (SPF should be produced from a single committed city)
      By day 25-30 should have 20 SAMs at lvl 3-4 min
      I have an alternative* to suggest. The alternative incorporates advice from many successful, long-term players and forum-users.

      It's the alternative used in the four games we discussed recently when we reviewed the value of building a few CRV in a game's very first days.
      1. Never, ever build MBTs.
      2. Win the game by Day 30 instead of piling up defensive units until Day 30.
      * = For public, non-Apocalypse games in which you can login frequently.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by KFGauss ().

    • KFGauss wrote:

      I have an alternative* to suggest. The alternative incorporates advice from many successful, long-term players and forum-users.
      It's the alternative used in the four games we discussed recently when we reviewed the value of building a few CRV in a game's very first days.
      1. Never, ever build MBTs.
      2. Win the game by Day 30 instead of piling up defensive units until Day 30.
      * = For public, non-Apocalypse games in which you can login frequently.
      This is how I usually win 1 x speed
      Alle sagten: Das geht nicht. Dann kam einer, der wusste das nicht und hat es einfach gemacht.
    • XD yeah. Most 1x people afk so MbTs really help in certain ways since they’re really tanky and heals pretty quick in the seas.
      Basically this will be the litteral “tank” to see what enemies have or what those remaining actives are capable in terms of strike and defence forces.
      **especially airforces

      Super late game they’re there to absorb arty but try to avoid late games.
    • Red Snapper wrote:

      japan samurai wrote:

      kurtvonstein wrote:

      1. MAA defend me when I am offline
      2. Cause I dont spam infantry I have supply and components left
      3. I need the electronics for good toys.
      Also gives some form of armoured HP to the defending stack…even though its really expensive and useless. other than that Most of the time I don’t research it, waste of Rares to go for Heli strat and would rather use those rares getting stronger Armoured support unit
      usually MBTs sound nice to me because they absorb SF damage pretty nice, good to understand enemy’s defence capability and takes 3days in water to heal 25hp.

      —AA guns try to get them going by day 10-13. From then on 1-2 every day before progressing to another city to build AA gun, then start alternating AA and MRL/TDS. (SPF should be produced from a single committed city)
      By day 25-30 should have 20 SAMs at lvl 3-4 min
      That is, if you're an Armor Addict. Personally I stay away from that class in general, except of course, if someone else is using armor, in which case I will make TDs.
      watch it nowww. Most of the time TDs are fine but they take long to heal too. So sometimes I just get MbTs and thats just a few of them only.

      But of course if you really want to compare then TD is better defence unit especially for cities but kinda takes too long for me to get them especially when I play eastern. (Unlocks the day you can get 3-5CRVs 5inf stack)
    • My planes have never ever lost to any player's M B Tanks, with or without other units being stacked with those tanks.

      My planes heal in hours, not days.

      When I see opponents building MBTs, I'm happy.

      My total games count isn't large by any means, but because other (highly experienced and successful) players who have played many, many games write pretty much the same thing that I just wrote . . . I'm not convinced that MBTs are ever a useful investment/compromise.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by KFGauss ().