JS - Your sentences are in white here. Mine are in green. The item that really caught my eye was where you wrote that "vast and quick expansions . . . results in higher casualties and unit losses . . . less troops . . . to do any serious defence . . . mid-game attacking force is delayed . . ."
CRVs are lame at scouting AI, just use Radar/ASf, AIs barely use ASfs and at the start of the game the ai units stay in cities. If they do however separate than it’ll be random 1 inf/CRV/AFV sitting in random border Provinces
On Day 1 through Day N CRVs in a land stack can see 60% farther than similar units, can identify the composition of the stacks they see, and can reveal stealth units. They are also strong attackers in the first few days and can be airlifted on Day 1.
Ground Radars don't detect infantry (Low signatures) until Day 14 + 30 hours.
Ground Radars are slow and can't be airlifted until Day 14 + 30 hours.
Ground Radars don't detect stealth units or reveal stack compositions until Day 25 + 36 hours.
Ground Radars contribute just a tiny bit more than zero to a stack's combat strength and similarly do roughly zero to help babysit a newly captured city.
I know that plenty of players would rather sell one of their children than play CoN without their Ground Radars, but Ground Radars' advantage (range) doesn't make them superior to a leftover CRV (that was already useful) in all roles.
ASF fly far and fast - However remembering what they saw and where they saw it is something of a pain in the neck.
ASF tell you whether Infantry, Support, Armor, or Air units are present when they spot something, but that's all.
In comparison, a CRV is pretty good at not bumping into opponents by accident, and identifies exactly what's in opposing stacks. From Day 1 until the game ends that's handy (not essential, but handy) because players who abandon countries often move their starting units around early in the game, or leave behind all manner of unit types, numbers and tech levels if they abandon them later in the game. A CRV that was an early-game attacker can be given a new purpose as a handy set of Anti-AI eyes (and captured-city babysitter) later in the game. The same is true when fighting active opponents, but less important.
CRVs ok at somewhat defending, NGs are so much cheaper and when mixed with infantry and maybe bunkers( long term investment + boost morale) is a better strat for defence.
(Saves resource for non melee units, not to mention 1 bunker ==1 CRV **almost)
I agree that NG are the preferred choice for defending (and for a few other uses).
That's why I wrote only about using CRVs for early-game (Days 1 through 5-ish) attacking, and for making abandoned-country clean-ups easier once the CRVs' early-game-attacker role ended.
Just make sure you get SPf by day 10-14 for scouting those neighbour enemies
Usually if someone has a super big stack, they usually only have a few of those “stacks” eg 2-3 early game and thus if they have such big stacks they probably are aiming it at destroying you, so you still end up having to fight them anyway, whether you like it or not.
Using Special Forces to clean up a abandoned country or for similar purposes sounds like a waste of an expensive unit mid-game unit.
If (it's a big "if") I had leftover CRVs and I had some recently built SPFs (that required a Level 3 Army Base, an Air Base, components and electronics, and Day 6 + 29 hours of research), and if I had a current or future active-opponent somewhere, I know which units I would probably use for clean-up duty, and which I would send to the active front.
Comparing giving CRVs a second purpose(s) with using new SPFs really isn't an useful comparison IMO.
Early game vast and quick expansions is something i’m not a fan of as it results in higher casualties and unit losses a long with less troops back at home to do any serious defence. Also means that you’re main mid game attacking force is delayed in production and research as more resources are pumped into the quick expansion effort
Pale Rider, and to a lesser extent I, are two recent advocates of expanding fast and never slowing down IN PUBLIC MAPS. We do it to win and win quickly. Even though winning a public game isn't much to brag about, it can be mildly satisfying when done well. We trade off the risk of an occasional failure against the ability to win quickly/frequently.
Forum users with more experience than PR or I generally agree that meeting good opponents in public games is rare, and that you can generally blitz through public games without being very cautious.
PR and I have both posted records of how rapid/constant expansion worked out in a variety of maps against both decent(ish) and weak (PUBLIC GAME) opponents.
I more than PR have emphasized that doing it is a bet that you're unlikely to encounter strong opponents in public games. Regardless, when it's done with a little foresight, you'll have time to adapt if you encounter a talented opponent.
Neither PR nor I suffer higher casualties than other players. In fact the opposite is true. He and I both detest losing any units because that usually means we screwed up (and not that our opponent was clever).
Neither PR nor I find that our mid-game attacking forces are delayed because our mid-game attacking forces are (to a first approximation) simply higher-tech versions and more of our Day 5-10 attacking forces.
PR and I also push hard to have game outcomes decided by about Day 30. I'm not sure when mid-game typically begins for you, but for us I'd say it starts somewhere in the Day 15-20 range.
In one recent game I didn't lose a single unit until Day 16, and that day's losses were because I was careless. That was one of the more challenging games I've played (FYI: My total game count is fairly low).
Spending one research project and both creating Army Bases and mobilizing CRVs out of them is expensive and does delay having something else (exactly what gets delayed depends on the player), so if someone's going to do it, they need to be sure a high-probability payoff (such as an opportunity to steamroll a couple of playable countries) is present and that they will be happy to trade the delay for the payoff.
The bulk of my defense (and I'm pretty sure that PR would say the same) is a good (PUBLIC GAME) offense. I try to take out threats before they can truly threaten me, and I put plenty of buffer zone between myself and land threats. In PUBLIC GAMES this works very well so far. Mobilizing CRVs for static defenses doesn't even cross my mind.
Here are some of the game histories/descriptions that PR, I and Kurt reported here in the forum. I think it's correct to say that Kurt is a fast-expansion player.
BGUSA in 30 days as Nicaragua - Pale Rider
Battleground USA - Nicaragua Journal / Guide to Victory with one of the smallest countries in 20 days
WW3 in 30 Days by Kurt
What's your ACTUAL Day 5, 10, 15, 20, ... Order of Battle (OOB)
WW3 - Coalition of friends - Trivial losses and a 45? day victory
What's your ACTUAL Day 5, 10, 15, 20, ... Order of Battle (OOB)
Pacific Theater - 18 Day victory by gobbling up abandoned countries
CoN NEW MAP: PACIFIC THEATER MAP
What's your ACTUAL Day 5, 10, 15, 20, ... Order of Battle (OOB)
Sengoku - 35 day victory against various active opponents - Rapidly expanding player loses first unit on Day 16 and has VPs = 3.5X 2nd place player
New map, Sengoku
CRVs are lame at scouting AI, just use Radar/ASf, AIs barely use ASfs and at the start of the game the ai units stay in cities. If they do however separate than it’ll be random 1 inf/CRV/AFV sitting in random border Provinces
On Day 1 through Day N CRVs in a land stack can see 60% farther than similar units, can identify the composition of the stacks they see, and can reveal stealth units. They are also strong attackers in the first few days and can be airlifted on Day 1.
Ground Radars don't detect infantry (Low signatures) until Day 14 + 30 hours.
Ground Radars are slow and can't be airlifted until Day 14 + 30 hours.
Ground Radars don't detect stealth units or reveal stack compositions until Day 25 + 36 hours.
Ground Radars contribute just a tiny bit more than zero to a stack's combat strength and similarly do roughly zero to help babysit a newly captured city.
I know that plenty of players would rather sell one of their children than play CoN without their Ground Radars, but Ground Radars' advantage (range) doesn't make them superior to a leftover CRV (that was already useful) in all roles.
ASF fly far and fast - However remembering what they saw and where they saw it is something of a pain in the neck.
ASF tell you whether Infantry, Support, Armor, or Air units are present when they spot something, but that's all.
In comparison, a CRV is pretty good at not bumping into opponents by accident, and identifies exactly what's in opposing stacks. From Day 1 until the game ends that's handy (not essential, but handy) because players who abandon countries often move their starting units around early in the game, or leave behind all manner of unit types, numbers and tech levels if they abandon them later in the game. A CRV that was an early-game attacker can be given a new purpose as a handy set of Anti-AI eyes (and captured-city babysitter) later in the game. The same is true when fighting active opponents, but less important.
CRVs ok at somewhat defending, NGs are so much cheaper and when mixed with infantry and maybe bunkers( long term investment + boost morale) is a better strat for defence.
(Saves resource for non melee units, not to mention 1 bunker ==1 CRV **almost)
I agree that NG are the preferred choice for defending (and for a few other uses).
That's why I wrote only about using CRVs for early-game (Days 1 through 5-ish) attacking, and for making abandoned-country clean-ups easier once the CRVs' early-game-attacker role ended.
Just make sure you get SPf by day 10-14 for scouting those neighbour enemies
Usually if someone has a super big stack, they usually only have a few of those “stacks” eg 2-3 early game and thus if they have such big stacks they probably are aiming it at destroying you, so you still end up having to fight them anyway, whether you like it or not.
Using Special Forces to clean up a abandoned country or for similar purposes sounds like a waste of an expensive unit mid-game unit.
If (it's a big "if") I had leftover CRVs and I had some recently built SPFs (that required a Level 3 Army Base, an Air Base, components and electronics, and Day 6 + 29 hours of research), and if I had a current or future active-opponent somewhere, I know which units I would probably use for clean-up duty, and which I would send to the active front.
Comparing giving CRVs a second purpose(s) with using new SPFs really isn't an useful comparison IMO.
Early game vast and quick expansions is something i’m not a fan of as it results in higher casualties and unit losses a long with less troops back at home to do any serious defence. Also means that you’re main mid game attacking force is delayed in production and research as more resources are pumped into the quick expansion effort
Pale Rider, and to a lesser extent I, are two recent advocates of expanding fast and never slowing down IN PUBLIC MAPS. We do it to win and win quickly. Even though winning a public game isn't much to brag about, it can be mildly satisfying when done well. We trade off the risk of an occasional failure against the ability to win quickly/frequently.
Forum users with more experience than PR or I generally agree that meeting good opponents in public games is rare, and that you can generally blitz through public games without being very cautious.
PR and I have both posted records of how rapid/constant expansion worked out in a variety of maps against both decent(ish) and weak (PUBLIC GAME) opponents.
I more than PR have emphasized that doing it is a bet that you're unlikely to encounter strong opponents in public games. Regardless, when it's done with a little foresight, you'll have time to adapt if you encounter a talented opponent.
Neither PR nor I suffer higher casualties than other players. In fact the opposite is true. He and I both detest losing any units because that usually means we screwed up (and not that our opponent was clever).
Neither PR nor I find that our mid-game attacking forces are delayed because our mid-game attacking forces are (to a first approximation) simply higher-tech versions and more of our Day 5-10 attacking forces.
PR and I also push hard to have game outcomes decided by about Day 30. I'm not sure when mid-game typically begins for you, but for us I'd say it starts somewhere in the Day 15-20 range.
In one recent game I didn't lose a single unit until Day 16, and that day's losses were because I was careless. That was one of the more challenging games I've played (FYI: My total game count is fairly low).
Spending one research project and both creating Army Bases and mobilizing CRVs out of them is expensive and does delay having something else (exactly what gets delayed depends on the player), so if someone's going to do it, they need to be sure a high-probability payoff (such as an opportunity to steamroll a couple of playable countries) is present and that they will be happy to trade the delay for the payoff.
The bulk of my defense (and I'm pretty sure that PR would say the same) is a good (PUBLIC GAME) offense. I try to take out threats before they can truly threaten me, and I put plenty of buffer zone between myself and land threats. In PUBLIC GAMES this works very well so far. Mobilizing CRVs for static defenses doesn't even cross my mind.
Here are some of the game histories/descriptions that PR, I and Kurt reported here in the forum. I think it's correct to say that Kurt is a fast-expansion player.
BGUSA in 30 days as Nicaragua - Pale Rider
Battleground USA - Nicaragua Journal / Guide to Victory with one of the smallest countries in 20 days
WW3 in 30 Days by Kurt
What's your ACTUAL Day 5, 10, 15, 20, ... Order of Battle (OOB)
WW3 - Coalition of friends - Trivial losses and a 45? day victory
What's your ACTUAL Day 5, 10, 15, 20, ... Order of Battle (OOB)
Pacific Theater - 18 Day victory by gobbling up abandoned countries
CoN NEW MAP: PACIFIC THEATER MAP
What's your ACTUAL Day 5, 10, 15, 20, ... Order of Battle (OOB)
Sengoku - 35 day victory against various active opponents - Rapidly expanding player loses first unit on Day 16 and has VPs = 3.5X 2nd place player
New map, Sengoku
