Anti-Air

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    • So, I've used this strategy many times. I use Air Superiority Fighters to attack frigates to initiate the anti-air. The frigates can't attack again for 10 minutes during which time I attack with Navy Strike fighters. I just tried this in a game and the frigates attacked all of my fighters I lost 7 fighters and more than half my hit points to 2 lvl 2 frigates. I didn't even destroy 1 of the frigates. Did CoN change the rules on anti air only being able to attack 1 stack of fighters at a time? Seems completely unbalanced considering the number of Strike fighters (10) to not able to destroy at least 1 frigate and lose half my force.
    • They didn’t change how it works; your percieved understanding of it is simply wrong
      ofc AA is extremely strong against aircraft; that hard counter is the whole point of it

      tho 2 frigates killing that many approaching aircraft seems kinda sus; unless you sent them all one by one lmao

      Teburu wrote:

      Teburu wrote:

      Hydralysk wrote:

      What can I do to get the SAM to fire as soon as any bogey is detected?
      nothingin general there are 3 "modes" which AA works in


      offensive AA tick
      AA checks and shoots offensivly at a set time; this time is different each game and happens in intervals of 10 minutes
      e.g: AA checks are 15:02; then the next offensive AA tick would be 15:12 and then the next 15:22 and so on.... it doesnt matter where the aircraft is as long as its in range it will be hit (in fact ALL aircraft in range will be hit)


      ranged AA defense
      outside of these set times AA can trigger if you attack something inside their range (even stealthaircraft can't avoide triggering the ranged defense); when ranged defense is triggered as many AA stacks as necessary to kill the offending unit will fire

      pointdefense
      pretty much the big "fuck you too" card AA has1; pointdefense is basically when you hit a unit, before you deal dmg the defending side hits first2; this tends to fuck over missiles in particular as it makes them utterly useless the second they don't posess enough HP to get past a units pointdefense value; pointdefense has no cooldown btw

      every time AA is triggered it goes on a 10 minute cooldown, keep in mind tho that pointdefense is no subject to this cooldown
      how does this interact with the 10 minute AA tick? simply put: if you know the AA tick you can basically force a about 20 minute period where your aircraft are free to move within aa range
      e.g: AA tick is 15:02; you attack something in AA range (or the AA itself but wtf why would you) at 15:03 to trigger the cooldown --> the for 15:12 scheduled tick doesn't happen happen cuz its on cooldown; the cooldown ends on 15:13 and next tick is at 15:22 (keep in mind tho that ranged AA def is still a thing


      1 afaik pointdefense is a thing every unit has; so don't try to missle a 5 stack of destroyers if all you have is a cm with 3 HP
      2 pointdefense is only a thing against aircraft/missiles; groundunits simply hit eachother at the same time

      I am The Baseline for opinions
    • I think there is something wrong with AA and naval units. I just went in and hit a stack of ships that had one badly damaged level one frigate (11hp), one destroyer with medium damage (22hp) and three level one cruisers with mild damage (124hp). I hit that stack with a stack of five level four naval patrol aircraft. I timed the run so that it struck a minute before the AA auto-fire. Based on the numbers, I should have done ~65 points of damage, while the ships should have done max of 12 points, but based on their health, more realistically about 8.

      The actual results? Ships did 30 points of damage, my aircraft did 48. No way in hell was that how it should have come out. No. Way. In. Hell.
    • DOA70 wrote:

      I think there is something wrong with AA and naval units. I just went in and hit a stack of ships that had one badly damaged level one frigate (11hp), one destroyer with medium damage (22hp) and three level one cruisers with mild damage (124hp). I hit that stack with a stack of five level four naval patrol aircraft. I timed the run so that it struck a minute before the AA auto-fire. Based on the numbers, I should have done ~65 points of damage, while the ships should have done max of 12 points, but based on their health, more realistically about 8.

      The actual results? Ships did 30 points of damage, my aircraft did 48. No way in hell was that how it should have come out. No. Way. In. Hell.
      you should by now be aware that rng is a thing and can be weird as fuck
      I am The Baseline for opinions
    • Teburu wrote:

      DOA70 wrote:

      I think there is something wrong with AA and naval units. I just went in and hit a stack of ships that had one badly damaged level one frigate (11hp), one destroyer with medium damage (22hp) and three level one cruisers with mild damage (124hp). I hit that stack with a stack of five level four naval patrol aircraft. I timed the run so that it struck a minute before the AA auto-fire. Based on the numbers, I should have done ~65 points of damage, while the ships should have done max of 12 points, but based on their health, more realistically about 8.

      The actual results? Ships did 30 points of damage, my aircraft did 48. No way in hell was that how it should have come out. No. Way. In. Hell.
      you should by now be aware that rng is a thing and can be weird as fuck
      I am, but here's round 3 (I was offline for round 2): 2 cruisers, 1 destroyer (with 3 hp), total hp 83. I attack with 3 NPA, having 58 hp. Results of that battle? Cruisers have 70 hp, I lost an NPA and they flew away with 40 hp. No anti-air envelope fired prior to their attack.

      Two level 1 cruisers with moderate damage and a destroyer with a thin sliver of life left cannot, under any circumstances, do nearly 20 points of damage. THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG!
    • WalterChang wrote:

      Are you sure there is no other AA in range?
      So now i have invisible UAVs I have adequately scouted the naval escorts. There is indeed another group, 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer and 2 frigates that are *just* within the frigate's anti-air umbrella. So based on the numbers, the entire flotilla's air defense is being added to the results, which is bullshit because only the two frigates are in range. But the worst part of all is that my attacks are diminished as well, as if it is being spread across the ships in both stacks, but the other stack has remained undamaged throughout this engagement.

      So, in essence, their defense is inflated and my attack is diminished, all on top of my inability to target multiple targets via the patrol function. The end result is I am put into a situation where there is no viable way to defend against naval attack via air. So, build a navy, right? Well, for countries that are landlocked ... not so easy.

      And either way, it wasn't a result of rng. I know the rng adds variability to the results, but when the results are more than 50% of the expected, there's something wrong.
    • If you give us Screenshots instead of descriptions, might be able to figure out it better.

      How ever trying to attack two stacks with frigs at once, is by default not really the smart way.

      The strength of aircrafts is their ability to heal up quickly, not to brute force themselves through.
      If you want to win aircrafts vs navy you want to avoid losses at any costs, the job of frigs is after all to kill aircrafts, so it would be bad game design, if they could not do that from the start.
    • Kalrakh wrote:

      If you give us Screenshots instead of descriptions, might be able to figure out it better.

      How ever trying to attack two stacks with frigs at once, is by default not really the smart way.

      The strength of aircrafts is their ability to heal up quickly, not to brute force themselves through.
      If you want to win aircrafts vs navy you want to avoid losses at any costs, the job of frigs is after all to kill aircrafts, so it would be bad game design, if they could not do that from the start.
      So the way this started was the enemy sent a whole bunch of transports in with the naval stacks. I countered with a wave of 15 high level helicopters to attack the transports and naval stack via patrol (which didn't work). I already knew the Naval Patrol wouldn't attack via patrol, so I directed them to hit the naval stack (not knowing about the other naval stack). The helicopters would have hit twice before my naval aircraft hit the first time, so the frigate would have been badly damaged by the time the aircraft attacked. That was the plan. Thanks to the :cursing: patrol bug though, that all went to hell in a hand basket. Plus, my helicopters were getting hit extra hard, just like my naval aircraft, while also doing extra light damage.

      Now I sent 15 level five attack helicopters, which should do ~30 pts of damage to a naval stack against the second stack. It has taken two strikes to reach 30 pts of damage. And I've taken *45 points of damage*; from a cruiser, destroyer and 2 frigates, all level 1. Their numbers say I should take ~6.5 per strike. The only other object anywhere remotely near is a 20hp cruiser, which shouldn't mean anything in this situation. The shit is broken, plain and simple.

      And I don't know how to do screen shots. Plus, this is a current fight, I don't want to give away anymore than I already have.
    • Just for reference, the way I do screenshots is to hit the Print Screen button on the keyboard and then chop out the bits I don't want people to see using Paint.

      As for the game, I agree. Using pure air power versus navy is utterly ineffective, and a flaw in the game as far as I see it. Helicopters are ok to use in support of your own ships, but on their own they don't work well at all. NPAs are just useless unless you are only having to attack destroyers, Corvettes or subs. If there are any cruisers or frigates involved you might as well not bother.

      If you are landlocked and therefore don't have navy, I find it better to allow the enemy to land, and then fight them there. They aren't taking homeland provinces, so I don't care if they gain a small amount of territory on the coast.
    • i can confirm this.and I alrwady wrote here in forum and ingame. Check the attack defense values on infoscreen. I first thpught they are display error but it seems.they are used for the actual fight. So what i habe observed is that in the AA tick the ships defense of destroyers counts as attack value as well.

      So when i got that surpise moment you habe described it could only explain with the infoscreen value. How about your case?

      Btw: your sure that thwre is ni second stack SAM or fregattes close by?
      @Dorado If you Close the Forum and move everything to Discord you will lose my Feedback for sure.
    • DOA70 wrote:

      Now I sent 15 level five attack helicopters, which should do ~30 pts of damage to a naval stack against the second stack. It has taken two strikes to reach 30 pts of damage. And I've taken *45 points of damage*; from a cruiser, destroyer and 2 frigates, all level 1. Their numbers say I should take ~6.5 per strike. The only other object anywhere remotely near is a 20hp cruiser, which shouldn't mean anything in this situation. The shit is broken, plain and simple.
      Wait. I assume your 15 Attack Helis are in 3 separate stacks, right?
    • WalterChang wrote:

      DOA70 wrote:

      Now I sent 15 level five attack helicopters, which should do ~30 pts of damage to a naval stack against the second stack. It has taken two strikes to reach 30 pts of damage. And I've taken *45 points of damage*; from a cruiser, destroyer and 2 frigates, all level 1. Their numbers say I should take ~6.5 per strike. The only other object anywhere remotely near is a 20hp cruiser, which shouldn't mean anything in this situation. The shit is broken, plain and simple.
      Wait. I assume your 15 Attack Helis are in 3 separate stacks, right?
      Correct. Three stacks of five. I ended up losing 3 helicopters and I *barely* finished off the naval stack (other player finally tried to move them out, but it was too late). Before the glitches, that would have never happened; those ships would have been lucky to get more than one or two hours of bombardment in before they were sunk.
    • I've noticed planes and helicopters sometimes not returning to base after engaging on patrol with ships. I think in some cases they still delivered their damage, though?
      I've also noticed that the notifications are being weird at the moment - some engagements go unreported.

      Could it be that in @DOA70 case his helicopters were receiving unreported range damage from the fleet as well as the point damage? That could have reduced his attacking output as well.

      Another thing I've noticed is that planes seem to be receiving AA damage from units that aren't in range of a direct attack, but are (just) in range of the patrol circle at the point of strike (even though the planes aren't using the patrol circle for their attack).
    • WalterChang wrote:

      I've noticed planes and helicopters sometimes not returning to base after engaging on patrol with ships. I think in some cases they still delivered their damage, though?
      I've also noticed that the notifications are being weird at the moment - some engagements go unreported.

      Could it be that in @DOA70 case his helicopters were receiving unreported range damage from the fleet as well as the point damage? That could have reduced his attacking output as well.

      Another thing I've noticed is that planes seem to be receiving AA damage from units that aren't in range of a direct attack, but are (just) in range of the patrol circle at the point of strike (even though the planes aren't using the patrol circle for their attack).
      I've noticed the same re reports, but no, I verified my patrols were not engaging and were not doing any damage as I witnessed that invasion force land with very no damage to some of the transports while the ones I hit were badly damaged. In the past, I would have sunk the entire flotilla using patrol. Instead, I lost a coastal city (annexed) and quite a few defending troops needed to completely repel the force. In short, it cost me many, many times more units and resources than it would have if the :cursing: game had been working properly (or at least how it worked two-three months ago).

      My helicopters were receiving damage from both naval stacks, but even adding in the (then unknown) second stack, the damage was still higher than what would be expected. Plus, it should not have affected, much, the damage I did to the stack I was attacking. Instead, my attack values were just about halved. The thing about using helicopters to attack naval ships is the damage values are generally low across the board (except for high level cruisers and aircraft carriers). It makes seeing when things are wrong a bit easier.
    • What is point defence?
      Point defence is one of the functions of AAs.
      Let's say we have a CM having 11 HP that is going to strike a fleet that has 5 DEF against missiles.
      The ranged attack of the AA was triggered by an aircraft carrying that CM, that aircraft got damaged by 5 but not the CM cause it was deployed after the 10 min check.
      When the CM hits the fleet it should deliver the dmg it deals but, for some reason it does only half of it.
      This is the Point Defence.
      Same as what Teburu wrote, it dmges the attacking unit before that one does
    • Shadow_C wrote:

      When the CM hits the fleet it should deliver the dmg it deals but, for some reason it does only half of it.
      This is the Point Defence.
      This is a rather confusing way of putting it.

      PD simply means that the AA scores an extra hit on incoming airforce (including missiles), over and above those triggered by the AA coverage. (If that hit halves the HP of the missile, then the dmg from the latter is indeed roughly half, but it could be other ratios depending on both the AA strength on missile HP.)
      Commander Zozo001 :thumbsup:
      humble player