HP question

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    • HP question

      I see something strange...
      Have 4 planes lvl 2, 22 HP at full health rn
      Now every plane has 15.7 HP
      Two planes stacked have 31.3 HP total
      Four planes stacked have 62.6 HP total
      But... 3 planes full can have 66 HP. So if I attack with 4 planes stacked (62.6 HP) I would definitely lose one. If I attack with 2x2 stacks I won't lose any.
      Where is the devil ? :evil:
    • Opulon wrote:

      Congrats, you just rediscovered mitigation.
      Wonderful.
      I treat it like that. You've invested your precious time to read my silly question. You've invested even more time to write 5 words that have no meaning neither to me nor to any other noob reading this thread. But these words really show you know something you're too bored to tell. But why then bother to answer at all ? Pass this thread by.
      Why are you doing this ? I recon you mastered this game and have answer to almost any question that may be asked. But you keep your knowledge to yourself and spit out just a sarcastic reply. Not an answer, not a link to answer.
      Is it a self-esteem ?
    • Drony - While I barely (just a teeny-tiny amount) agree with you - You need to look in the mirror.

      I'm pretty sure the answer to your question can be found using simple searches of the heaps of material already accumulated in this forum's threads.

      So, instead of using some of your own time to do just a little research into this topic, you appear to have wanted to sit on your backside and expect that other people would stop whatever they are doing and take time out of their busy lives to hand you a long-form answer whenever you decide you need them to do it.

      I recommend 1) Point your rudeness detector at a mirror and see it thinks laziness is turning into rudeness, and 2) interpret Opulon's answer as "You should do a search for the word 'mitigation' here in the forum."

      Does that make sense? I always attempt a search before asking a question, because I was taught that not doing the bare minimum to try to find an answer myself, before I ask other people to point me in the right direction is rude.

      KFG
      PS: A Quick stroll through the forum will tell you that Opulon is one of the more helpful people here. I suspect that you got as much of his time as he was able to spare.
    • KFGauss
      I always listen to people when they say reasonable things like you.
      I did honestly search for a word "mitigation" as you advise and got 2 pages. But could not find answer to my question. The problem is: I do not use mixed stack, only strike planes.
      What should I search for then ?

      P.S. I'm well aware Opulon is kinda guru and authority here I just wonder why he bothered to answer at all
    • Drony77 wrote:

      KFGauss
      I always listen to people when they say reasonable things like you.
      I did honestly search for a word "mitigation" as you advise and got 2 pages. But could not find answer to my question. The problem is: I do not use mixed stack, only strike planes.
      What should I search for then ?

      P.S. I'm well aware Opulon is kinda guru and authority here I just wonder why he bothered to answer at all

      Opulon wrote:

      Congrats, you just rediscovered mitigation.
      Dude literally just telling you what people call the mechanic you discovered
      I am the basline for opinions
    • Sorry, my message was more as a lighthearted comment because 99% of people don't never ever manage to reach this kind of understanding ^^. It was not meant to be derogatory, to the contrary. It's pretty much like someone that rediscovers the laws of gravity. He could have read Newton, that is true, but his rediscovery still is beyond the 99%.

      Indeed, i thought that with a search of the word "mitigation", you would have found your joy.


      If you want a elaborated explanation, your situation is tied to how the game decides a unit should die. Units don't have individual HPs, they are pooled.


      let's imagine 5 planes with 100 HP. For the game, it's not 5 entities with 20 hp, It's one big entity with 5 "parts", each 20 HP worth. When the group gets wounded by 21 hp, the first plane dies, and the 4th plane gets 1 hp damage.

      Now, when you SPLIT, the game redistributes those damages (magically, one would say) to each new entity.


      Hence, as long as you have one big entity of 5, any damage will be focused on "one plane until it dies", then the second, and at the moment you split, the damage get shared.


      Sooo... let's imagine something fun.

      5 planes, 100 HP , takes 19 HP damage. 1 hp until a plane dies.
      You separate, and do 3 planes and 2 planes.

      The 3 planes have 48,6 HP
      The 2 planes have 32,4 HP

      Suddenly, the group of three can endure 8,5 more damage before a plane dies, and the group of 2 can endure 12,3 more damages before a plane dies.

      Let's imagine they do take such hits.

      You separate (again) in single planes squadrons

      Each Separate plane on the former group of 3 now has 13,3 hp
      Each separate plane on the former group of 2 now has 10 hp

      So, at that point, your 5 planes (100 hp) have technically endured 41 damages, which is enough, if they remained together, to kill 2 of them (there would be a group of 3 planes with 59/60 hp). But you didn't lost any.

      And if you didn't lost any, you can maybe get them to rest in a hospital, where they WILL heal ( and 5 units heal "in volume" faster than 3 , even if it's in the same proportions)


      It's a part of what we call "mitigation", the art of nullifying some damages to save units.

      Mixed groups and Mitigation go hand in hand, in order to ensure that a group can take a significant amount of punishment before losing a single unit.


      1 Air Officer, 1 stealth ASF, 1 NASF, 2 ASF

      45 HP (dies at 0) + 28 HP (dies at 0) + 25 HP (dies at 0)+ 50 HP (dies at 25)

      This is a group of 148 HP where the FIRST plane will die when the WHOLE groupe roughly reach 70 HP (so... after enduring 78 hp worth of damage)... and when the first plane has died, no other plane will die until the whole group is like 8 HP on 123 (148 minus the ASF that died)

      It is to tied with the fact that a damage unit (even at 1% of its HPs) still hits at 50% (minimum) of its damage, while the officer still provides damage bonus.

      This thing still bites hard even when it's on the verge of dying, and it's hard as fuck to kill.

      On the other side, a group of pure 5 ASF would get mauled.


      Weeeeelll, in fact, you can do the skirmish.


      This group

      148 HP
      Damages : ( 18*2 (ASF) + 18 (NASF) + 21 (Stealth) + 15 (Officer) ) = 90 in defense. Defense * 1,3 = 117 in attack.


      5 ASF

      125 HP
      Damages : 90



      The officer group has the speed edge, and should be able to attack the first group.

      Deals 117 and receives 90 hp. The attacking group loses 1 ASF, the defending group loses between 3 and 4 ASFs.

      If the ASF group survivors try to attack the RTB Officer group, they kill nothing (while still dealing around 40 damage) , but they all die (because they receive around 80 damages).

      The end result being "1 ASF lost for 5 on the other side, and you go to heal the things".
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.
    • Now that's the answer I expected to get from Opulon.
      So it's definitely a magic that, well, changes a gameplay, for me at least.
      Basically, if you have a x5 stack closing to lose one unit, you separate it and continue your fight. Yes, you lose damage, but if you only need to kill single unit with no losses - this is your choice.
      I appreciate your in-depth answer and I apologize for my words that might have offended you. I really thank you for this answer. It's kinda weird math but at least I know how it works now.
      If anyone can breath and think at the same time, this info is invaluable and can bring you the victory at certain point imho.
      Thanks again, Opulon, much appreciated.
    • Most skilled players tend to fight in a way to preserve their life, and to maximise the "trade value" of any blow they deal in return.

      CoN is not that much a game where a player should pat himself on the back for "being able to beat an opponent after killing 20 000 troops to the cost of 200 000 of his own". :D
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.
    • Drony - I'll add one simplifying addendum to Opulon's comments.

      The research to produce the mixed stack he described is not trivial. For me (so far) a game has to last for a while before I feel comfortable using research on all of the units he listed.

      But like I think you may have observed in your OP, if you have a simple air force and simple cookbook method for reducing losses, just peel one plane out of the stack each time you are about to lose one.

      That's my poor man's simple way to both preserve the stack's offensive power and taking advantage of what you and Opulon discussed.

      KFG
    • Yes, i took the most extreme case. As KFGauss noticed, it's not (at all) common.

      However, you will often cross Air Officer + ASF group, which follow the same pattern.

      And if you cross trained players, you will often cross ASF + NASF group, which purpose (in the double research) is EXCLUSIVELY for mitigation
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.
    • KFGauss
      Yes, indeed, I rarely have games long enough to get to NASF. Maybe because I don't fight in captured lands and go directly to home country. It is risky but if carefully planned and conducted such raid decides war outcome within 1-2 days. So 40-50 days is max game time and last 10-15 days we simply mop up empty lands.

      As for your comment: I always monitor my stacks health. But removing one plane from the stack is not enough - it would still be low on health and may lose at least one plane during next attack.

      Just checked it again with real figures:
      Have 5 planes total 110 HP (22 per plane), currently at 94.2 HP. First plane would be lost at 88 so I have 6.2 point to lose.
      Removed one plane and send it to heal. It has 18.9 points
      Remaining 4 have 75.4/88 so it's now 9.6 points to lose before next plane goes down.
      Now split this 4 into 2x2 stacks. Each stack now has 37.7/44 HP. So for each 2-planes stack there are 15.5 points to lose before next plane goes down. Which is just magic comparing to initial 6.2 HP above.
      I do lose damage dealt by smaller stack and if I attack the same target I would get damage for every stack but this increased health pool is worth it definitely

      So as Opulon explained, splitting group into 3-2 is much better it terms of survival
    • when you have 3 NASF + 2 ASF, once a NASF has died, you can split 2/2 and have this big mitigation effect.

      But there are many ways to use it, and my text is less about "do this" and more about "look at how the effect can be spectacular".

      Deploying mixed/mitigated groups is typically something you can do in a team of players that are trustable, because, to quote KFGauss, the cost of reseach, infrastructure, and time of deployment, are far from trivial.
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.
    • New

      KFGauss wrote:

      That's my poor man's simple way to both preserve the stack's offensive power and taking advantage of what you and Opulon discussed.
      I didn't write that peeling planes out of the stack minimizes your chance of losing a plane when your stack(s) is suffering high damage.

      I wrote that peeling a plane out of a stack is simple, and preserves the stack's offensive power.

      What you (and Opulon) wrote is true. What I wrote is also true.

      What I wrote can be useful if one four-plane attack will kill a target that has weak AA ability, but a three-plane attack would let it survive and force you to let it hit you again during a second attack by you.

      I don't think we're disagreeing about anything.

      KFG
    • New

      Opulon wrote:

      Yes, i took the most extreme case. As KFGauss noticed, it's not (at all) common.

      However, you will often cross Air Officer + ASF group, which follow the same pattern.

      And if you cross trained players, you will often cross ASF + NASF group, which purpose (in the double research) is EXCLUSIVELY for mitigation
      Not exclusively:

      L1 NASF is much stronger then a L1 ASF, you get the combat strength of L3 units for a quarter of their research costs :)
    • New

      Kalrakh wrote:

      Opulon wrote:

      Yes, i took the most extreme case. As KFGauss noticed, it's not (at all) common.

      However, you will often cross Air Officer + ASF group, which follow the same pattern.

      And if you cross trained players, you will often cross ASF + NASF group, which purpose (in the double research) is EXCLUSIVELY for mitigation
      Not exclusively:
      L1 NASF is much stronger then a L1 ASF, you get the combat strength of L3 units for a quarter of their research costs :)
      Yes indeed.
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.