New Map / Scenario suggestions

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    • Tumbler wrote:


      Well you couldn't be more wrong.

      I've tried strategies that include most of the units in the game and am coming to understand that you simply can't use most of the units and be competitive. I'm seeing the most effective startegies and I've developing strategies to counter them but over and over I don't have to adapt to much that is unexpected because a few key units offer so much benefit that either your oppenent builds that way and you counter them or they don't and you just obliterate them.

      It sounds like you have not tryed using many of the units I'm proposing because there is no way to include them in your army against a competent player. Just consider how strong and versatile the infantry unit is. If you devote resources to build Recon tanks, or AFB's, you'll simply be overwhelmed by high tier infantry as these units become dominant very fast by just focusing on teching them up. They hit armor, infantry and air VERY hard if you just focus on building infantry and teching them up.

      Plus early on they're very cheap so if you build a lot of them you end up with an exponentially more powerful force with just a few steps up in tech. Those units can go out and take land / cities and increase your income so fast that nothing else matters. If your opponent spends his resources building AFB's and recon by comparison they'll get obliterated by the infantry. You'll have tier 1 inf, recon and afb's while he's got tier 3 infantry and it only gets worse.

      Please explain a strategy for using anything besides strike fighters against infantry that are being teched up asap. (let's assume no naval cities)

      Fair enough. I'm not going to get into a debate about which units are best against whichever other ones, but if you find that infantry, tanks and strike fighters is you need then that's fine.

      I still don't think that giving players free research at the start of the game would make a difference to anything, though (except perhaps in some sort of historical scenario where some countries start with higher tech than others). If you've made up your mind about the best units to use, you're going to build those, no matter which others are available

    • Tumbler wrote:

      Well you couldn't be more wrong.

      I've tried strategies that include most of the units in the game and am coming to understand that you simply can't use most of the units and be competitive. I'm seeing the most effective startegies and I've developing strategies to counter them but over and over I don't have to adapt to much that is unexpected because a few key units offer so much benefit that either your oppenent builds that way and you counter them or they don't and you just obliterate them.

      It sounds like you have not tryed using many of the units I'm proposing because there is no way to include them in your army against a competent player. Just consider how strong and versatile the infantry unit is. If you devote resources to build Recon tanks, or AFB's, you'll simply be overwhelmed by high tier infantry as these units become dominant very fast by just focusing on teching them up. They hit armor, infantry and air VERY hard if you just focus on building infantry and teching them up.

      Plus early on they're very cheap so if you build a lot of them you end up with an exponentially more powerful force with just a few steps up in tech. Those units can go out and take land / cities and increase your income so fast that nothing else matters. If your opponent spends his resources building AFB's and recon by comparison they'll get obliterated by the infantry. You'll have tier 1 inf, recon and afb's while he's got tier 3 infantry and it only gets worse.

      Please explain a strategy for using anything besides strike fighters against infantry that are being teched up asap. (let's assume no naval cities)
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    • Hi, i think Walter got the point.

      If you want to be efficient you build the best units. If the best units cost research you pay for the research to have them.

      I like Marines and the idea to do a naval invasion everywere a coast ist. But to be honest. Instead of building them, i build a fleet, I bomb the coastal city and then i conquer it with a national guard.
      More cost effcient...

      Sure there are lots of units where you can do a well ballanced attack with...you you just get the best bang for you cash and do the job...
      Having this said: I would not build mech inf or mbt even if it comes as a free tech.

      And btw: you miss the early advantage of a recon...try to stop a stack of 5 recons and 5 infantry on day 2.
      @Dorado If you Close the Forum and move everything to Discord you will lose my Feedback for sure.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by kurtvonstein ().

    • Yep. If we expand the reasoning to the max : "Aircraft carriers are cool and theoretically useful but by the time you can have some with the good onboard units, you will already have crossed the oceans with something else and established local airfields."


      Management for dummies : Effectivness =/= Efficiency :D
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.

    • Opulon wrote:

      Yep. If we expand the reasoning to the max : "Aircraft carriers are cool and theoretically useful but by the time you can have some with the good onboard units, you will already have crossed the oceans with something else and established local airfields."


      Management for dummies : Effectivness =/= Efficiency :D
      That is the core issue I'm seeing.

      Many units just can't be used without putting you at a big disadvantage. The game would be more interesting if people could employ more, or all, the units without a distinct disadvantage.

      Fighters in particular have an interesting branch in tech. You can research naval fighters and later stealth fighters! That looks really cool!

      But when u consider the cost and time it's a horrible choice. You've already built many fighters or strike fighters and u would be way better off continuing to upgrade those. If you try and divert into naval or stealth u have to start building diff units which ultimately will not give u a better return.

      You can group them together with your existing units but the cost of doing that is all your other units are 1 level lower and u prob have 1 fewer because you needed something upgraded to build the new unit.

      I think the battles would be better and more players would enjoy playing and more players means more potential money spent. In the games I play a lot of players simply quit after the first day or two. I think this is a big issue the devs should try and fix and the most obvious thing to me is the lack of options at the very beginning.

      This scenario / map would be a baby step in the direction of units that get very little use. As others have said this prob wouldn't be enough to make a difference but I'd rather play it out in the game and see.

      Being able to build a uav and infantry officer in particular might make a big difference. It's easy to have a stack of 10 Inf early, building an officer and having 9 Inf attached might mean people have to use stronger anti Inf units like artillery or helos? Possibly recon or afv?

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Tumbler ().

    • im always voice for some kind of “skip early game”
      but sadly it is the time that most people spending [REDACTED]
      but hey, if mid game becomes early game, people still would spending [REDACTED] to some extent right?
      because when everyone have the same advantages, no one have the advantage.
      This post was made by Leader of the Church of ROAD

    • playbabe wrote:

      im always voice for some kind of “skip early game”
      but sadly it is the time that most people spending [REDACTED]
      but hey, if mid game becomes early game, people still would spending [REDACTED] to some extent right?
      because when everyone have the same advantages, no one have the advantage.
      I can't wait till I find players that use all these units in mid game:

      Airborne Infantry
      National guard
      Recon Armor (normally just see free one you start with)
      Armored Fighting Vehicle
      Towed Artillery (I normally just see the free one you start with)
      Mobile Anti-Air (I see these but they don't see to do much)
      Attack Helicopter (Anti Armor)
      UAV
      Heavy Bomber (These show up but rarely have a big effect on the game)
      Attack Submarine
      Conventional Warhead
      Infantry Officer
      Airborne Officer
      Rotary Wing Officer
      Submarine Officer (this guy would have a HUGE effect on naval combat, he gets the 100 range at tier 4 I think, really want to see how people use this)
      Elite Attack Helicopter (If you have season pass badge)

      You see these units in mid game? And they make a difference?

      I'm going to start playing games planning to spend 10k gold in the beginning day. I'll see what having recon and artillery available in large numbers early on does. I'm not convinced have access to these extra things is going to make a huge difference but I'll go check and report back.

    • Tumbler wrote:

      I can't wait till I find players that use all these units in mid game:
      Airborne Infantry
      National guard
      Recon Armor (normally just see free one you start with)
      Armored Fighting Vehicle
      Towed Artillery (I normally just see the free one you start with)
      Mobile Anti-Air (I see these but they don't see to do much)
      Attack Helicopter (Anti Armor)
      UAV
      Heavy Bomber (These show up but rarely have a big effect on the game)
      Attack Submarine
      Conventional Warhead
      Infantry Officer
      Airborne Officer
      Rotary Wing Officer
      Submarine Officer (this guy would have a HUGE effect on naval combat, he gets the 100 range at tier 4 I think, really want to see how people use this)
      Elite Attack Helicopter (If you have season pass badge)

      . . .
      It's Day 23, and I'm using the items highlighted in green (Public WW3 Game, lots of dropouts this time, but that doesn't change my answer). Using the AFVs was/is an experiment - They're OK, but not great.

      From the chit-chat I see in the CoN Discord "server" there are plenty of people who use the items I highlighted with cyan.

      Of course neither what I do nor what the Discord frequent flyers gab about, is a substitute for actual statistics.

      I use the ones highlighted in green (the jury is still out on the AFVs) because I think they make a difference.

      KFG

      PS: I'm not playing to defeat sophisticated alliance-match opponents. I'm playing to quickly clear a typical public WW3 map, with the help of 3-4 coalition partners.

    • Using the AFVs was/is an experiment - They're OK, but not great.

      That was my opinion when I used them as well.

      I've also used airborne and recon together to air assault but for all the investment and time spent they are inferior to standard infantry. Just being able to give standard Inf stacked move orders is way more useful. And you get ranged attacks at lvl 6.

      If you could stack air assault orders this might change, I can see them being really good if you didn't have to micro them all the time.

    • Tumbler wrote:

      Using the AFVs was/is an experiment - They're OK, but not great.

      That was my opinion when I used them as well.

      I've also used airborne and recon together to air assault but for all the investment and time spent they are inferior to standard infantry. Just being able to give standard Inf stacked move orders is way more useful. And you get ranged attacks at lvl 6.

      If you could stack air assault orders this might change, I can see them being really good if you didn't have to micro them all the time.
      Who said anything about sending Airborne and CRV together in an air assault? I didn't. You are assuming too much.

      I'm using the Airborne right now too sweep up the giant provinces in South America.

      I'm using the recons as the eyes for ordinary Mot Inf that are also roaming around South America. When I get to a city, now or earlier in the game, the CRV sits on it while the Infantry captures the surrounding provinces.

      This is all possible because of the way this one specific game evolved. I'm describing it because your earlier post made it sound like you were completely ignoring and discounting that these units (and others) could possibly have uses outside the narrow path you seemed to expect each and every game to follow.

      Bottom Line: I think the universe of likely CoN game scenarios is bigger than you think it is. The the world of public CoN games isn't black and white.

      The post was edited 3 times, last by KFGauss ().

    • Tumbler wrote:

      playbabe wrote:

      im always voice for some kind of “skip early game”
      but sadly it is the time that most people spending [REDACTED]
      but hey, if mid game becomes early game, people still would spending [REDACTED] to some extent right?
      because when everyone have the same advantages, no one have the advantage.
      I can't wait till I find players that use all these units in mid game:
      Airborne Infantry
      National guard
      Recon Armor (normally just see free one you start with)
      Armored Fighting Vehicle
      Towed Artillery (I normally just see the free one you start with)
      Mobile Anti-Air (I see these but they don't see to do much)
      Attack Helicopter (Anti Armor)
      UAV
      Heavy Bomber (These show up but rarely have a big effect on the game)
      Attack Submarine
      Conventional Warhead
      Infantry Officer
      Airborne Officer
      Rotary Wing Officer
      Submarine Officer (this guy would have a HUGE effect on naval combat, he gets the 100 range at tier 4 I think, really want to see how people use this)
      Elite Attack Helicopter (If you have season pass badge)

      You see these units in mid game? And they make a difference?

      I'm going to start playing games planning to spend 10k gold in the beginning day. I'll see what having recon and artillery available in large numbers early on does. I'm not convinced have access to these extra things is going to make a huge difference but I'll go check and report back.
      Most public match players, or userxxxx, will not use these units, but look out for those that do.

      I personally despise all armor types…I hate trading hits with opponents, attack choppers are a way better option. Attack choppers with gunships and rotary officers will decimate any kind of infantry or armor stacks with little losses, especially if hospitals are being utilized. Airborne infantry goes good with that strategy, not to be used for combat but for rapidly taking difficult terrain provinces and maybe empty cities. Especially potent in early to mid game, offering quick expansion because of rapid redeployment and concentration of forces at any given point…provided sufficient airfields are available.
      Hint: Your infantry and armor stacks would have no chance against this…

      The generally accepted Meta of this game, (MRLS, ASF, Sam Launchers, Radar), generally includes both national guards (to take the territory but not for combat, why waste resources on infantry when cheaper unit does the same job?) and anti air (for the aforementioned choppers).

      Heavy bombers are very powerful but are often misused as a tactical weapon against ground units but should be used strategically to destroy enemy homeland buildings. A few sorties by those bad boys and your opponent will be back in the Stone Age. Of course your opponent would actually have to have buildings for this to work :D

      Submarines are very lethal but only against players with a decent navy. But if/when you counter someone with them, it sure is fun :D
      Submarine officer is super powerful though you generally won’t need it

      UAVs- imagine flying this thingy over someone’s territory to find out what, where, and how much, without declaring war! Especially useful in 4x games for quick pass by.

      Airborne officer goes amazing with a stack of special forces. Gosh, probably the most lethal ground melee combination out there, especially in proper terrain.

      I am by no means a pro but here are the reasons players should use most of the units mentioned. Units like bombers, UAVs, airborne infantry, national guard, etc are not made to be your primary fighting weapons but are meant to either do the dirty work of freeing up your main forces, giving you an economic advantage, etc.

      Cheers :thumbsup:
      I am Aeneas, duty-bound and known above high air of heaven by my fame, carrying with me in my ships our gods of hearth and home, saved from the foe. I look for Italy to be my fatherland, and my descent is from all-highest Jove.

    • MarineRecon33 wrote:

      Tumbler wrote:

      playbabe wrote:

      im always voice for some kind of “skip early game”
      but sadly it is the time that most people spending [REDACTED]
      but hey, if mid game becomes early game, people still would spending [REDACTED] to some extent right?
      because when everyone have the same advantages, no one have the advantage.
      I can't wait till I find players that use all these units in mid game:Airborne Infantry
      National guard
      Recon Armor (normally just see free one you start with)
      Armored Fighting Vehicle
      Towed Artillery (I normally just see the free one you start with)
      Mobile Anti-Air (I see these but they don't see to do much)
      Attack Helicopter (Anti Armor)
      UAV
      Heavy Bomber (These show up but rarely have a big effect on the game)
      Attack Submarine
      Conventional Warhead
      Infantry Officer
      Airborne Officer
      Rotary Wing Officer
      Submarine Officer (this guy would have a HUGE effect on naval combat, he gets the 100 range at tier 4 I think, really want to see how people use this)
      Elite Attack Helicopter (If you have season pass badge)

      You see these units in mid game? And they make a difference?

      I'm going to start playing games planning to spend 10k gold in the beginning day. I'll see what having recon and artillery available in large numbers early on does. I'm not convinced have access to these extra things is going to make a huge difference but I'll go check and report back.
      Most public match players, or userxxxx, will not use these units, but look out for those that do.
      I personally despise all armor types…I hate trading hits with opponents, attack choppers are a way better option. Attack choppers with gunships and rotary officers will decimate any kind of infantry or armor stacks with little losses, especially if hospitals are being utilized. Airborne infantry goes good with that strategy, not to be used for combat but for rapidly taking difficult terrain provinces and maybe empty cities. Especially potent in early to mid game, offering quick expansion because of rapid redeployment and concentration of forces at any given point…provided sufficient airfields are available.
      Hint: Your infantry and armor stacks would have no chance against this…

      The generally accepted Meta of this game, (MRLS, ASF, Sam Launchers, Radar), generally includes both national guards (to take the territory but not for combat, why waste resources on infantry when cheaper unit does the same job?) and anti air (for the aforementioned choppers).

      Heavy bombers are very powerful but are often misused as a tactical weapon against ground units but should be used strategically to destroy enemy homeland buildings. A few sorties by those bad boys and your opponent will be back in the Stone Age. Of course your opponent would actually have to have buildings for this to work :D

      Submarines are very lethal but only against players with a decent navy. But if/when you counter someone with them, it sure is fun :D
      Submarine officer is super powerful though you generally won’t need it

      UAVs- imagine flying this thingy over someone’s territory to find out what, where, and how much, without declaring war! Especially useful in 4x games for quick pass by.

      Airborne officer goes amazing with a stack of special forces. Gosh, probably the most lethal ground melee combination out there, especially in proper terrain.

      I am by no means a pro but here are the reasons players should use most of the units mentioned. Units like bombers, UAVs, airborne infantry, national guard, etc are not made to be your primary fighting weapons but are meant to either do the dirty work of freeing up your main forces, giving you an economic advantage, etc.

      Cheers :thumbsup:
      I wouldn't agree that players should use all these other units as they rules are setup now. (day 1 tech) MRLS, ASF, Sam Launchers and radar are all day 2 or beyond tech and there are certainly reason to use these depending on what your enemy is doing.

      But the ones you mentioned, Bombers. No one should use these. I know they can be useful but given way territory works at showing you all enemy contacts in your territory the bombers are going to show up long before they hit the target unless you go to the trouble to send them in over the sea and then you might fly over a frigate... Stike Fighters can get in an out faster, can still do building damage and can then be redirected to hit other ground targets when needed. Unless you have Air superiority over your enemy bombers don't really do enough to justify the cost. Stealth bombers do but that's a late game unit. (and they're awesome specifically because you can fly them right into enemy territory and they won't see them)

      Subs are lethal at the top tier. Everything below that and they're going to run into naval units that can rip them apart easily. Most naval engagements happen in coastal waters and most players use destroyer and corvettes so your stealth isn't going to help much. At tier 6 Subs become naval superiority units, you just send them out in a pack of 5 and they'll probably kill everything they come across. The attack range being outside of what most units can automatically fire back at makes them lethal but anything before that and you have to micro them very carefully. I haven't played with the sub commander before but he gets the 100 range bonus at tier 4 so I'm going to try that in the future. I'll bet that will catch many players by surprise.

      UAV's need stealth. Over land, which is most of the combat, they're easily spotted. You fly one in and everyone has at least 1 fighter so it's easy to go blow it up. Over water, I recently discovered, only a high tier frigate can see them, they're the only air unit with a small radar sig and the only naval unit that can spot low fixed wing is a Lvl 6 or 7 frigate. (very rare to see this upgrade imo) If you use them as anti naval units and eventually upgrade to missiles you might be able to stop naval forces without a navy but I need to try this. I swear they get blown up by frigates though but maybe the game I'm thinking of involved lvl 6 or 7 frigates. I def like seeing the damage state of the enemy but just building and upgrading more fighters is a better solution for needing to spot things in enemy territory. The UAV still show up as a huge red or blue box for your enemy to see also, it might be a lot more interesting if it was just a tiny icon floating around so there was a chance the enemy would never see it.

    • when i do fregattes i almost certainly do them to the top...even spotting helicoprts and stealth is worth the investment...and against strike fighter...every little damage point counts...

      I usually acompnaiy my Fleet with least on naval recon plane...so i dont get surprise by enemy fleets or submarines...unless you support your subs with fregattes its high noon ;)
      @Dorado If you Close the Forum and move everything to Discord you will lose my Feedback for sure.

    • Tumbler wrote:

      But the ones you mentioned, Bombers. No one should use these. I know they can be useful but given way territory works at showing you all enemy contacts in your territory the bombers are going to show up long before they hit the target unless you go to the trouble to send them in over the sea and then you might fly over a frigate... Stike Fighters can get in an out faster, can still do building damage and can then be redirected to hit other ground targets when needed. Unless you have Air superiority over your enemy bombers don't really do enough to justify the cost. Stealth bombers do but that's a late game unit. (and they're awesome specifically because you can fly them right into enemy territory and they won't see them)
      This paragraph is pure, undiluted cobblers. [Edit: except for the bit about Stealth Bombers - that is true.]

      I suggest you try out Heavy Bombers again, if you ever have before.

    • The problem of heavy bomber is that i often see them used by randoms in 4X, and they use them as anti-inf heavy planes, which is a poor role for them, especially when the trend is to get harder and harder HP percentage in well developed armies.

      On the other hand, it's rare i encounter someone that understands their mid/late value as "creative angle infrastructure buster", which is enough to encourage me to invest significant resources just for homeland security. And stealth bombers are just making me paranoid on the top of that. They could already be out there.
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.

    • That's exactly it.

      I build heavy bombers quite often, and being slightly paranoid as I am, I tend to assume that if I've got them then someone else is probably doing the same.

      I have been attacked by stealth aircraft (SFs it was) precisely once ever. But that's enough to make me build stealth ASFs nearly always!

      Opulon wrote:

      On the other hand, it's rare i encounter someone that understands their mid/late value as "creative angle infrastructure buster"
      In fact, if you go for them in the early game, they can be utterly devastating. If you can get a few of them into action in the first week, people are generally completely unprepared to counter them. Once you take out their airbases (usually people only have 1 or 2 at this point), there is nothing they can do except watch as their cities turn to rubble.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by WalterChang ().

    • I must admit that an ugly strategy...but as you describe it very effective to stop enemies develop and build high class weapons.

      The best wars are the ones you dont have to fight...

      But considering the fun of playing the game and struggeling to beat you enemie on the battlefield. No.

      It comes close to using sabotage spys...I dont consider it honorable. I want to kill the enemies units...

      To more he builds the more kills i can do...it comes close to Zombie Farming....
      @Dorado If you Close the Forum and move everything to Discord you will lose my Feedback for sure.

    • WalterChang wrote:

      That's exactly it.

      I build heavy bombers quite often, and being slightly paranoid as I am, I tend to assume that if I've got them then someone else is probably doing the same.

      I have been attacked by stealth aircraft (SFs it was) precisely once ever. But that's enough to make me build stealth ASFs nearly always!

      Opulon wrote:

      On the other hand, it's rare i encounter someone that understands their mid/late value as "creative angle infrastructure buster"
      In fact, if you go for them in the early game, they can be utterly devastating. If you can get a few of them into action in the first week, people are generally completely unprepared to counter them. Once you take out their airbases (usually people only have 1 or 2 at this point), there is nothing they can do except watch as their cities turn to rubble.
      If we are speaking from a very pure "early meta" understanding, i wouldn't do them out of fear of encountering, even if rare, even someone with 10% the skill i require from my rookies.

      You know how it is :

      You do SAMs on 99 maps without encountering a single soul doing airforce properly or missiles, and the 100 th map, you decide you won't do SAM as usual, and suddenly, you need to fight someone that understands properly bubble-piercing, plate and mail armor concepts, Patrol optimisations, and such :D
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.