Submarine change

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    • Smallsword wrote:

      Dealer of Death wrote:

      P.S. Get the Hell off my lawn!!!
      Hey,I found you asleep in a public park... and you P.S.ed yourself off.

      You should look at the history of chess by the way.... Bring back my elephants you rookie bastard!
      Oh, and you were eating "pag pag" from a game I read about with some Philippine commission...Can't remember the name exactly P.E...A.N.U.T.S of something... Peng Peng... or no... I found you eating peng peng and pag pag in a public park... all good man... people like to have a good time. It's all good fun
    • Smallsword wrote:

      Dealer of Death wrote:

      P.S. Get the Hell off my lawn!!!
      Hey,I found you asleep in a public park... and you P.S.ed yourself off.

      You should look at the history of chess by the way.... Bring back my elephants you rookie bastard!
      Pah, different graphics, same piece, movement, and originally were chariots

      P.S. I didn't mean this was my lawn, I meant I'm a grumpy bastich.
      *** The Creator of Zombie Farming ***

      The "Get off my lawn!" cranky CoN Forums Poster - not affiliated with Dorado in any way


      "Death comes to us all. Shall I deal you in?" - DoD
    • Smallsword wrote:

      Smallsword wrote:

      Dealer of Death wrote:

      P.S. Get the Hell off my lawn!!!
      Hey,I found you asleep in a public park... and you P.S.ed yourself off.
      You should look at the history of chess by the way.... Bring back my elephants you rookie bastard!
      Oh, and you were eating "pag pag" from a game I read about with some Philippine commission...Can't remember the name exactly P.E...A.N.U.T.S of something... Peng Peng... or no... I found you eating peng peng and pag pag in a public park... all good man... people like to have a good time. It's all good fun
      I have no idea what the hell you were hallucinating about with your peng pag ping pong talk, but you should probably lay off the hard drugs. No doubt they also contributed to this thread's suggestion. ^^
      *** The Creator of Zombie Farming ***

      The "Get off my lawn!" cranky CoN Forums Poster - not affiliated with Dorado in any way


      "Death comes to us all. Shall I deal you in?" - DoD
    • Dealer of Death wrote:

      Smallsword wrote:

      Dealer of Death wrote:

      P.S. Get the Hell off my lawn!!!
      Hey,I found you asleep in a public park... and you P.S.ed yourself off.
      You should look at the history of chess by the way.... Bring back my elephants you rookie bastard!
      Pah, different graphics, same piece, movement, and originally were chariots
      P.S. I didn't mean this was my lawn, I meant I'm a grumpy bastich.
      I knew that much.
      Great thread by the way.
      Best fake news of our time.

      I figure if Carthage can put elephants in the alps... I can cross the Rubicon.
      I make suggestions because I love the game.
      It scratches an itch... but the itch scratches back.

      ...Maybe I contracted something from your thread.
      I've yet to play with the undead... so I must of got it from you.
      Just wait... soon I'll be salivating with a salvo of suggestions
      like a necromancer with Tourette's in a turret.
    • Dealer of Death wrote:

      Smallsword wrote:

      Smallsword wrote:

      Dealer of Death wrote:

      P.S. Get the Hell off my lawn!!!
      Hey,I found you asleep in a public park... and you P.S.ed yourself off.You should look at the history of chess by the way.... Bring back my elephants you rookie bastard!
      Oh, and you were eating "pag pag" from a game I read about with some Philippine commission...Can't remember the name exactly P.E...A.N.U.T.S of something... Peng Peng... or no... I found you eating peng peng and pag pag in a public park... all good man... people like to have a good time. It's all good fun
      I have no idea what the hell you were hallucinating about with your peng pag ping pong talk, but you should probably lay off the hard drugs. No doubt they also contributed to this thread's suggestion. ^^
      I hear you take peng peng like a hard drug 8o

      You have the internet, right? look it up...
    • Smallsword wrote:

      Dealer of Death wrote:

      Smallsword wrote:

      Smallsword wrote:

      Dealer of Death wrote:

      P.S. Get the Hell off my lawn!!!
      Hey,I found you asleep in a public park... and you P.S.ed yourself off.You should look at the history of chess by the way.... Bring back my elephants you rookie bastard!
      Oh, and you were eating "pag pag" from a game I read about with some Philippine commission...Can't remember the name exactly P.E...A.N.U.T.S of something... Peng Peng... or no... I found you eating peng peng and pag pag in a public park... all good man... people like to have a good time. It's all good fun
      I have no idea what the hell you were hallucinating about with your peng pag ping pong talk, but you should probably lay off the hard drugs. No doubt they also contributed to this thread's suggestion. ^^
      I hear you take peng peng like a hard drug 8o
      You have the internet, right? look it up...
      The only thing I could find was about some canadian chick, hence the my assertion on your hallucinations.
      *** The Creator of Zombie Farming ***

      The "Get off my lawn!" cranky CoN Forums Poster - not affiliated with Dorado in any way


      "Death comes to us all. Shall I deal you in?" - DoD
    • Smallsword wrote:

      Dealer of Death wrote:

      Smallsword wrote:

      Dealer of Death wrote:

      P.S. Get the Hell off my lawn!!!
      Hey,I found you asleep in a public park... and you P.S.ed yourself off.You should look at the history of chess by the way.... Bring back my elephants you rookie bastard!
      Pah, different graphics, same piece, movement, and originally were chariotsP.S. I didn't mean this was my lawn, I meant I'm a grumpy bastich.
      I knew that much.Great thread by the way.
      Best fake news of our time.

      I figure if Carthage can put elephants in the alps... I can cross the Rubicon.
      I make suggestions because I love the game.
      It scratches an itch... but the itch scratches back.

      ...Maybe I contracted something from your thread.
      I've yet to play with the undead... so I must of got it from you.
      Just wait... soon I'll be salivating with a salvo of suggestions
      like a necromancer with Tourette's in a turret.
      FAKE?!?

      I only report the truthiest truth!

      P.S. There is no such thing as "undead", only displaced homeless peoples
      *** The Creator of Zombie Farming ***

      The "Get off my lawn!" cranky CoN Forums Poster - not affiliated with Dorado in any way


      "Death comes to us all. Shall I deal you in?" - DoD
    • Dealer of Death wrote:

      Smallsword wrote:

      Dealer of Death wrote:

      Smallsword wrote:

      Smallsword wrote:

      Dealer of Death wrote:

      P.S. Get the Hell off my lawn!!!
      Hey,I found you asleep in a public park... and you P.S.ed yourself off.You should look at the history of chess by the way.... Bring back my elephants you rookie bastard!
      Oh, and you were eating "pag pag" from a game I read about with some Philippine commission...Can't remember the name exactly P.E...A.N.U.T.S of something... Peng Peng... or no... I found you eating peng peng and pag pag in a public park... all good man... people like to have a good time. It's all good fun
      I have no idea what the hell you were hallucinating about with your peng pag ping pong talk, but you should probably lay off the hard drugs. No doubt they also contributed to this thread's suggestion. ^^
      I hear you take peng peng like a hard drug 8o You have the internet, right? look it up...
      The only thing I could find was about some canadian chick, hence the my assertion on your hallucinations.
      ah, its slang from the Philippines ... pag pag ... peng peng...
    • Dealer of Death wrote:

      Smallsword wrote:

      ...

      It's like this thread is full of British Admirals in 1935 all saying " No, we don't want submarines with torpedoes!... It's not a simulation! This is how warfare is!... We use battleships and we speak the Queen's!"
      I've heard excuses for the game as "well that's how warfare is" and then practically in the same sentence "well it's not a simulation" a plethora of times in my short time on this forum.
      It's like everyone is afraid of rocking the boat... Afraid of a powerful unit... Afraid to meet the challenge or seize the opportunity there in.
      It's like however it is must be perfect because that's how it is and you're all wrapped up in a security blanket in your safe spaces with glowing little pixels of the units you know front and back as "not a simulation" and so "that's how warfare is."
      "It's balanced"



      ...
      Maybe it's just that some people like the game. They like playing the game. They aren't tweaked out ADHD victims who look at chess and go, "well, we should get rid of one of the bishops and replace it with a longbowman." Because it's a game. And people try to get good at a game, not have the rules change every month because someone with no commitment to the game can't be bothered to get good so wants to shake things up.
      Here's an idea, dissatisfied with the game? Go play something else.
      replacing the bishop with longbowmen? thats silly
      clearly the rook has to go

      i mean, rooks moving around? completely unrealistic, makes the game literally unplayable
      I am the basline for opinions
    • Smallsword wrote:

      Are subs good at taking out cruisers?
      Not without cruise missiles.
      Not without 100 range.
      Not if the cruisers are stacked with anything like a frigate or destroyer.


      Are CM good for anything with anti-air?
      Not unless they're leveled to 15HP+.

      Do frigates defend against 15HP missiles reasonably well?
      sure do.

      One single 15HP CM cost two warheads.
      2 slots per sub.

      Attack subs are even worse than destroyers in their own realm... against other subs.

      If you have a sub stack it's either all attack or weaker yet with a ballistic sub that really shouldn't be engaging other vessels.



      Seems like they don't pack enough punch to do the job against anything particularly well.
      Seems like for the sake of keeping the destroyer useful the attack sub is rendered irrelevant.

      Unless of course you max out all your research on attack subs and CM and can find a 5 stack of cruisers all by itself.

      Either the CM act like torpedos (not affected by anti air)
      or put the attack back in the attack sub attack stat.

      I want to hit and hide with a sub.
      I want it to excel at something.
      I wouldn't mind it having a lower HP in exchange for a significant offensive capability... especially if it could hide in a meaningful way...

      You can attack a sonar signature with surface vessels of any sort.
      I suppose if destroyers/corvettes were the only surface ships that could harm it at all... and only through melee... it would be better.
      Submarines are part of a whole naval rock-paper-scissors scheme. Cruisers beat destroyers, destroyers beat submarines, and submarines beat cruisers. Cruisers, submarines, and destroyers beat frigates and corvettes. Frigates beat aircraft and can damage any of these three main vessels but not win against any except by numbers. Corvettes are terrible at fighting any of them.

      Lately I have been seeing a lot of cruisers. So lately I have been building a mix of frigates and submarines to great success. The trick with submarines is to properly use their stealth to get free hits on enemy vessels and provide anti air support nearby with the frigates. Submarines DESTROY cruisers… cruisers have a ton of hp but deal 1/4 of their normal damage vs submarines and cannot even detect them unless engaged. I love to upgrade them to max level and just prowl the world seeking targets. Just escort them with frigates and they become almost invisible.


      Happy hunting!!
    • Aeneas of Troy wrote:

      Smallsword wrote:

      Are subs good at taking out cruisers?
      Not without cruise missiles.
      Not without 100 range.
      Not if the cruisers are stacked with anything like a frigate or destroyer.


      Are CM good for anything with anti-air?
      Not unless they're leveled to 15HP+.

      Do frigates defend against 15HP missiles reasonably well?
      sure do.

      One single 15HP CM cost two warheads.
      2 slots per sub.

      Attack subs are even worse than destroyers in their own realm... against other subs.

      If you have a sub stack it's either all attack or weaker yet with a ballistic sub that really shouldn't be engaging other vessels.



      Seems like they don't pack enough punch to do the job against anything particularly well.
      Seems like for the sake of keeping the destroyer useful the attack sub is rendered irrelevant.

      Unless of course you max out all your research on attack subs and CM and can find a 5 stack of cruisers all by itself.

      Either the CM act like torpedos (not affected by anti air)
      or put the attack back in the attack sub attack stat.

      I want to hit and hide with a sub.
      I want it to excel at something.
      I wouldn't mind it having a lower HP in exchange for a significant offensive capability... especially if it could hide in a meaningful way...

      You can attack a sonar signature with surface vessels of any sort.
      I suppose if destroyers/corvettes were the only surface ships that could harm it at all... and only through melee... it would be better.
      Submarines are part of a whole naval rock-paper-scissors scheme. Cruisers beat destroyers, destroyers beat submarines, and submarines beat cruisers. Cruisers, submarines, and destroyers beat frigates and corvettes. Frigates beat aircraft and can damage any of these three main vessels but not win against any except by numbers. Corvettes are terrible at fighting any of them.
      Lately I have been seeing a lot of cruisers. So lately I have been building a mix of frigates and submarines to great success. The trick with submarines is to properly use their stealth to get free hits on enemy vessels and provide anti air support nearby with the frigates. Submarines DESTROY cruisers… cruisers have a ton of hp but deal 1/4 of their normal damage vs submarines and cannot even detect them unless engaged. I love to upgrade them to max level and just prowl the world seeking targets. Just escort them with frigates and they become almost invisible.


      Happy hunting!!
      That's my set up but vice versa!
      ... the subs were just like mobile sonar that weren't as good as the frigates at killing subs...
      Always tons of strike fighters and destroyer/cruiser stacks in the games I've played...


      I'd use corvettes in the same way as subs and started feeling like they were basically the same unit with opposite shallow stats.
      I'd have 30+ frigates maxed roaming in 3 by 5 packs ... downing planes as I hit and ran in sequence ... and wait for the sub.
      The subs just felt so weak and expensive... detectable and less capable.
      I hate over building... a navy base 3 is painful for me...so I was sour about it all.... I'd build them out in the late game just to see what the what was... but maybe I've just got it all flipped.


      I can level my naval officer now... that is real stealth... if I put him with some attack subs that have the range ... I could see that being a blast...

      I guess I just need some positive experiences with them in a game where the circumstances compel me to build them out.

      Thanks for your post. It does make me think I could be wrong about them... and I honestly hope I am.
    • Kalrakh wrote:

      And carriers ended the submarine era? There is no ship big then a carrier and they seem to be still all over the place.

      How ever in this game hardly anyone even considers building carriers. :)
      because they are so incredible expensive to build (requirements, infrastructure and so on). Airfield is cheaper on most maps and lets oyu transport troops too
      Alle sagten: Das geht nicht. Dann kam einer, der wusste das nicht und hat es einfach gemacht.
    • kurtvonstein wrote:

      Kalrakh wrote:

      And carriers ended the submarine era? There is no ship big then a carrier and they seem to be still all over the place.

      How ever in this game hardly anyone even considers building carriers. :)
      because they are so incredible expensive to build (requirements, infrastructure and so on). Airfield is cheaper on most maps and lets oyu transport troops too
      Yeah, but carrier offer more then just being an airfield ;)
    • Smallsword wrote:

      Aeneas of Troy wrote:

      Smallsword wrote:

      Are subs good at taking out cruisers?
      Not without cruise missiles.
      Not without 100 range.
      Not if the cruisers are stacked with anything like a frigate or destroyer.


      Are CM good for anything with anti-air?
      Not unless they're leveled to 15HP+.

      Do frigates defend against 15HP missiles reasonably well?
      sure do.

      One single 15HP CM cost two warheads.
      2 slots per sub.

      Attack subs are even worse than destroyers in their own realm... against other subs.

      If you have a sub stack it's either all attack or weaker yet with a ballistic sub that really shouldn't be engaging other vessels.



      Seems like they don't pack enough punch to do the job against anything particularly well.
      Seems like for the sake of keeping the destroyer useful the attack sub is rendered irrelevant.

      Unless of course you max out all your research on attack subs and CM and can find a 5 stack of cruisers all by itself.

      Either the CM act like torpedos (not affected by anti air)
      or put the attack back in the attack sub attack stat.

      I want to hit and hide with a sub.
      I want it to excel at something.
      I wouldn't mind it having a lower HP in exchange for a significant offensive capability... especially if it could hide in a meaningful way...

      You can attack a sonar signature with surface vessels of any sort.
      I suppose if destroyers/corvettes were the only surface ships that could harm it at all... and only through melee... it would be better.
      Submarines are part of a whole naval rock-paper-scissors scheme. Cruisers beat destroyers, destroyers beat submarines, and submarines beat cruisers. Cruisers, submarines, and destroyers beat frigates and corvettes. Frigates beat aircraft and can damage any of these three main vessels but not win against any except by numbers. Corvettes are terrible at fighting any of them.Lately I have been seeing a lot of cruisers. So lately I have been building a mix of frigates and submarines to great success. The trick with submarines is to properly use their stealth to get free hits on enemy vessels and provide anti air support nearby with the frigates. Submarines DESTROY cruisers… cruisers have a ton of hp but deal 1/4 of their normal damage vs submarines and cannot even detect them unless engaged. I love to upgrade them to max level and just prowl the world seeking targets. Just escort them with frigates and they become almost invisible.


      Happy hunting!!
      That's my set up but vice versa!... the subs were just like mobile sonar that weren't as good as the frigates at killing subs...
      Always tons of strike fighters and destroyer/cruiser stacks in the games I've played...


      I'd use corvettes in the same way as subs and started feeling like they were basically the same unit with opposite shallow stats.
      I'd have 30+ frigates maxed roaming in 3 by 5 packs ... downing planes as I hit and ran in sequence ... and wait for the sub.
      The subs just felt so weak and expensive... detectable and less capable.
      I hate over building... a navy base 3 is painful for me...so I was sour about it all.... I'd build them out in the late game just to see what the what was... but maybe I've just got it all flipped.


      I can level my naval officer now... that is real stealth... if I put him with some attack subs that have the range ... I could see that being a blast...

      I guess I just need some positive experiences with them in a game where the circumstances compel me to build them out.

      Thanks for your post. It does make me think I could be wrong about them... and I honestly hope I am.
      Yes, the mantra “always adapt to the situation” still stands. Your frigate/corvette combo is indeed cheap and capable and could do some damage vs submarines. But I if I had one stack of max level cruisers (and/or destroyers) and naval officer, I could destroy your 30 vessels because of the cruisers greater speed allowing me to hit your fleet with massive damage and race away to reload…you can’t catch me but would have to perfectly time when my fleet returned to fire to even get a shot off. Or you would have to trap me somehow. And your corvettes would not even get the range to make a hit. In any case, you would have a nightmare on your hands. Enter: submarines. If you want the super stack get a submarine officer as well. Just make sure you stay in deep waters. And submarines really shine once they are upgraded to top tier.

      I think the reason why you haven’t seen the value of submarines is because you haven’t yet seen the situations where they shine. If most of your enemies are inactive or don’t properly upgrade their navies or don’t know how to use them (ie send them straight into close combat or don’t move them much), frigates and corvettes are possibly the best route to take. But if/when you fight a capable naval player, frigates and corvettes might not be enough, especially late game.

      Hope this helps!
    • Aeneas of Troy wrote:

      Yes, the mantra “always adapt to the situation” still stands. Your frigate/corvette combo is indeed cheap and capable and could do some damage vs submarines. But I if I had one stack of max level cruisers (and/or destroyers) and naval officer, I could destroy your 30 vessels because of the cruisers greater speed allowing me to hit your fleet with massive damage and race away to reload…you can’t catch me but would have to perfectly time when my fleet returned to fire to even get a shot off. Or you would have to trap me somehow. And your corvettes would not even get the range to make a hit. In any case, you would have a nightmare on your hands. Enter: submarines. If you want the super stack get a submarine officer as well. Just make sure you stay in deep waters. And submarines really shine once they are upgraded to top tier.
      I think the reason why you haven’t seen the value of submarines is because you haven’t yet seen the situations where they shine. If most of your enemies are inactive or don’t properly upgrade their navies or don’t know how to use them (ie send them straight into close combat or don’t move them much), frigates and corvettes are possibly the best route to take. But if/when you fight a capable naval player, frigates and corvettes might not be enough, especially late game.

      Hope this helps!
      Totally,
      3 stacks of 5 frigates offer a lot of opportunity for entrapment... two stacks aren't really sufficient to handle a dangerous stack with speed/range/HP
      With a serious naval power I might elect an all or nothing approach and move all 6 stacks in...

      The corvette's only role was providing sonar...I didn't even lvl them. They were pointless in battle... I had to keep them away from the action... or maybe sacrifice them as a diversion.

      In the last game I finished I'd started the sub build...built a sub commander.... was leveling them up... but it was long after any naval threat was eliminated... it was just to stay vigilant and keep up the habit of preparedness.... If my coalition decided to fracture and go to war I would have had a better idea of their usefulness...but that's not what happened.

      When destroyers are the most prevalent enemy ship, as has been most of my experience, dedicating research to subs just felt like a fools errand...
      In late game, when the subs range is 50 it's hard to justify building them...compared to the already 100 range frigates... I was left feeling like the subs were really lacking, even against other subs. Their use to me was limited to sonar/cruise missiles... which game frigates don't have (so strange)...
      Cruise missiles can't hit subs and with the slightest bit of anti-air they are destroyed...
      I leveled the cruise missiles up, but stopped short of the 15HP because it would reduce my entire stockpile of warheads in half... I needed the 40+ warheads for my stacks of heavies and stealth bombers which could already unload more than that stockpile in a day.

      Thus, my rant on torpedoes... maybe it's a stupid idea in terms of gameplay... maybe it's not... I just thought it was worth considering, certainly worth discussing in a thread about submarine changes.
    • Late game range 50? Are you talking about AIP or what kind of sub?


      Also Frigs are quite bad in ship vs ship combat: Destoyer, Cruiser, Subs all schred frigs quite easily

      Corvs never get more then 75 range and can't really enter deep so, so are pretty much useless to scout for Attack subs and Sonar is useless against AIPs
      Frigs gain range 100 at day 26 and Attack Subs at Day 22, so still problems following your arguement
    • I'm not trying to support an argument... I'm trying to participate in a discussion, not a debate...
      The thread posed the question: What would you change about submarines?
      My response: They should have torpedoes.
      Most of the thread's response: No! No discussion. No changes. (at least that's the sense I got)

      If I was making an argument at all, it was for having the discussion...

      I tried to explain my experience with subs... combating them/building them...
      In every game I've played they weren't very popular or prudent options.
      I guess my response could have been: Make them more popular.
      I'm happy to learn about other's experiences and views... they are making my view of subs in the game more well-rounded.



      AIPs are way more submarine-like ... they pack a punch and have the stealth to get in close.... except they are for the shallows?
      I don't have the season badge anyway... and there isn't a mechanism to get past badges.



      The corvettes I used were strictly as "mobile sonar"... never would engage them... there would be one of them trailing 15 frigs
      The attack subs I started building in the late game to replace the corvettes for this role.... they weren't leveled up more than 2 or 3 before the game ended.



      Frigs are a numbers game when it comes to ship-to-ship, of course...
      I've always found them to be the most bang for the buck... they can fulfill so many roles... they only require navy base 2 and a preliminary research and then the production is pretty quick.
      Everything else seems to take too long and cost too much and be too few by the time my frigates arrive... when a player isn't focusing on building/leveling up a specific branch they haven't a chance.
      They are the early game ships that can snuff out naval competition before it begins and still be relevant later in the game. I've even used them in the late game as coastal missile defense systems.
      What they lack is sonar and cruise missiles... and that's all I found attack subs useful for...
      I just wanted more use from them... and I wanted to have more fear of them.

      I guess there is a solid block of days where subs could capitalize on their range advantage... I'm happy you brought that to my attention.
    • Smallsword wrote:

      I'm not trying to support an argument... I'm trying to participate in a discussion, not a debate...
      The thread posed the question: What would you change about submarines?
      My response: They should have torpedoes.
      Most of the thread's response: No! No discussion. No changes. (at least that's the sense I got)

      If I was making an argument at all, it was for having the discussion...

      I tried to explain my experience with subs... combating them/building them...
      In every game I've played they weren't very popular or prudent options.
      I guess my response could have been: Make them more popular.
      I'm happy to learn about other's experiences and views... they are making my view of subs in the game more well-rounded.



      AIPs are way more submarine-like ... they pack a punch and have the stealth to get in close.... except they are for the shallows?
      I don't have the season badge anyway... and there isn't a mechanism to get past badges.



      The corvettes I used were strictly as "mobile sonar"... never would engage them... there would be one of them trailing 15 frigs
      The attack subs I started building in the late game to replace the corvettes for this role.... they weren't leveled up more than 2 or 3 before the game ended.



      Frigs are a numbers game when it comes to ship-to-ship, of course...
      I've always found them to be the most bang for the buck... they can fulfill so many roles... they only require navy base 2 and a preliminary research and then the production is pretty quick.
      Everything else seems to take too long and cost too much and be too few by the time my frigates arrive... when a player isn't focusing on building/leveling up a specific branch they haven't a chance.
      They are the early game ships that can snuff out naval competition before it begins and still be relevant later in the game. I've even used them in the late game as coastal missile defense systems.
      What they lack is sonar and cruise missiles... and that's all I found attack subs useful for...
      I just wanted more use from them... and I wanted to have more fear of them.

      I guess there is a solid block of days where subs could capitalize on their range advantage... I'm happy you brought that to my attention.
      The submarines already have torpedoes though. It is their main attack.
      Yee Haw
    • Colonel Waffles wrote:

      The submarines already have torpedoes though. It is their main attack.
      I guess.
      Seems to me they have an "attack" and we try to think "how do subs attack?" and then deduce "the subs attack with torpedeos."
      U-boats used to surface to use cannons... that seems more the battle dynamic in the game.

      Even subs that would launch torpedoes from near surface (periscope) wouldn't take fire from surface vessels.
      That's what's happening in the game... an exchange of fire.

      If subs in the game were impervious to surface vessel ranged fire and could only be attacked by surface ships via melee ... I would have an easier time believing that subs currently use "torpedoes"

      That's another possible shift in the gameplay. Make the subs slow and stealthy....they'd be like towed artillery of the sea.... low HP, slow, but with a distinct advantage to their surface peers... they can deal ranged fire to anything in the water...but could only be dealt ranged fire sub to sub... or if the faster surface ships ram them for melee, the destroyers would then be using "depth charges"