Tank Centric Build

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    • Tank Centric Build

      I never build tanks... I've been trying to think of a strategy built around them... was hoping to get some input from some tank lovers.


      Nation selection...
      Landlocked with a lot of open terrain or with neighbors with open terrain.... Chad? Is that the ideal choice?

      Units...
      Motorized Infantry
      Tank (Of course)
      Mobile radar
      Multiple Rocket Launcher
      SAM
      Air Superiority Fighter
      Infantry Officer
      Tank Commander
      Air Ace
      Naval Patrol Bomber

      I was trying to have a consolidated selection to mass-mobilize and level each.


      Does this look competitive?
      Anything that could be left out or exchanged?...anything that needs to be added?
      Vulnerable to anything in particular?
      Do mechanized infantry really help tanks? Worth adding?
      What's the build/research/mobilization priority? (early/mid/late)

      Best tactics?
      Expansion?
      Economy?


      Tanks are really outside of my wheelhouse and I'm thinking of trying this out... but want to see what the more experienced have to say.
      Thanks for looking.
    • If you try to put together a tank focussed build you might want to go into more detail of how you imagine it to play, cuz i just see mrl in the list of units and think "okay lets completely disregard the mbt and go for mrl".



      Smallsword wrote:

      Does this look competitive?
      No, tanks by default are not viable in a competetive environment


      Smallsword wrote:

      Anything that could be left out or exchanged?...anything that needs to be added?
      Uhm good question, maybe considering afvs for additional mitigation of damage the armored units end up recieving?
      Might want to get mobile Anti air early on because they are more tanky and the lower buiding requirements means you get some AA out before sams, the downside is ofc that they will cost you some components
      Not sure about the offciers since they cost a lot of resources and all of the units youre gonna go for already require components
      MRLS eh idk; if you arent gonna focus on them i dont really see any point in getting them cuz otherwise their numbers will be to small to really make an impact not really sure, cant picture them in a mbt focussed built without stealing the show

      Smallsword wrote:

      Vulnerable to anything in particular?
      Artillery, really this is a tank focussed build; you'll be vulnerable to really anything that wont be fighting in melee
      I mean, yes you have mrls listed as a unit in your lineup but they really arent gonna do much if your focus is on tanks; frankly outside of tanks you have almost no source of damage against ground units, especially entrenched stacks will cost you heavily


      Smallsword wrote:

      Do mechanized infantry really help tanks? Worth adding?
      Really wouldnt add them if you focus on armored units, simply because they also take up components that would be used for more tanks instead; i think they "help" armor in that regard that they will take more dmg then the tank? not really sure, might just be only flavor text


      Smallsword wrote:

      What's the build/research/mobilization priority? (early/mid/late)
      well tanks ofc? especially with eastern doctrine you will be able to get them out quite early

      Smallsword wrote:

      Best tactics?
      Expansion?
      Economy?
      Press W and hope you dont face anyone focussed on artillery; since tanks have such a high HP pool building hospitals for them to heal really is not a viable idea, instead healing them in coastal waters works a lot faster
      I am The Baseline for opinions
    • Thanks for the organized response!
      That healing in a convoy ship tip is incredible... I'd occasionally find enemy convoys just sitting outside of cities and think "What the hell are they doing there like that?"... now I know.

      I guess I'm thinking I'm going to use the tanks for what they're good at. Taking damage.

      I know realism isn't the thing around here but I'm drawing my tank strategy from recent history.

      In the Iraq war a tactic called "Thunder Runs" was used by the US.
      A company of tanks would drive in full view on main roads basically asking to be attacked.
      Hostiles would emerge, attack, and then be put down.

      A 10 stack of tanks is a juggernaut.
      I'm not planning on chasing artillery... I'm just going straight to the objective.
      All the enemy effort is going to be on this massive tank stack.
      The MRL would be back and engage from afar as the tanks take the hits.
      Infantry follow behind the tanks, sweep provinces, protecting the flanks, preventing runners, reaching objective cities once cleared.
      ASF take helicopters out (primary)
      SAM clears enemy ASF/SFs.
      Radar gives an idea of enemy movements...targets/potential runners.
      Officers mitigate negative terrain stats, enemy entrenchment, and the air ace gives an edge to the ASF

      Mid/late game Naval Patrol bombers provide some piece of mind in water crossings and are armed with cruise missiles for stubborn enemy stacks.
    • The only tank that might be worth as 'meat shield' would be the European Elite Tank, because he offers a nice bit of point-defense against air attacks

      Other then that, tanks are far to expensive to be used as 'meat shields'

      If you need heavy armor to get the tank commaner, I suggest to go for the armored fighting vehicle, cheapest version and offers decent AA-point defense


      An experienced player will just ignore a pure tank stack, because a pure tank stack can't to shit, they can't conquer and destroy any cities
      On top even a stack of ASF can take them down without any losses, if will take fucking a lot of time, but it can be done
    • I think the reason that tanks are so bad is the negative terrain modifiers. I mean, if I get attacked by tanks I just go and hide in a city: if they attack me there, they die; if they don't then they can't make meaningful gains anyway. Or wait for them in a mountain or jungle region and build a Combat Outpost as they approach - that reduces their attack value by about 75%.

      Maybe they're ok as defensive units? You put them outside a city in a fortified position and they'd be pretty tough to kill, I guess (if you also protect them from air and artillery attacks, but that's probably a given anyway).
    • "Meat shield" is kind of derogatory... tankers have feelings, too ;( ... nobody seems to want them.

      I still think that in tandem with the other units they can become viable options... the best? I don't know about that.
      It's the unit nobody seems to like... and call me crazy but I think that means there's an angle not being seen.

      What's clear to me about a fat stack of tanks is that they are going to reach their objective.
      A player will either lose units or vacate a home city.
      Making your enemy make tough decisions is to claim the initiative... even if the territorial objective isn't claimed... the battle objective is.
      If I can get them to move, I can get them to move where I want them... I can pick the battlefield... or pin them down.
      The infantry just needs to arrive at some point.



      I'm not worried about who gets to be the prima donna of the onslaught ... MRL's are going to make kills... tanks are going to push them around.
      Every battle is different ...but I think the relation between the 500 HP stack of armor that no one wants to deal with; either because they don't think it's important or because it's going to be moving any stack underground at 80 damage per hour, and the MRL with equally indiscriminate damage dealing 4.5-41 every shorthand is a powerful combo to say the least.

      It's not like only one battle strategy is applicable with a couple handfuls of tanks. Splitting the tank stack up is an option. Just to have a solid frontline from border to border:

      Tank/Infantry---T/I---T/I---T/I---T/I---T/I---T/I---T/I---T/I---Tank/Infantry
      ..........MRL/SAM/MR ........Infantry/SAM ...........MRL/SAM/MR..........
      .........................................ASF.............................................

      A phalanx that can push/pull ... consolidate/expand... dense up/thin down ____ _-_-_ -_-_- W V U O Y T <---All sorts of formations could be practical for any given moment in battle.
      Any of these letter shapes right side up/upside down.
      Trap/Trample





      I've built anti-tanks every game... can't get away from how effective they are.... early build/cheap/airlift early/air assault/city bonus stat (where you always want to go)/armor killer, of course

      I just like how tanks look... and they give me this feeling of weight and power... I want to see what I can get out of them... but right now I'm trying to figure what I can put into them

      Keep the comments coming please... a little RPG... tell me your ideal build at day 11-15 to deal with this.
    • I suppose the main problem with tanks is, that they are melee which is the weakest class in the game.

      In reality they can fire quite some distance and devestate building in game not so much.

      Though even in real life tanks these days probably are not that usefull anymore compare to high tech units like unmanned drones.


      In regards of your scenario:
      If 10 of your tanks sit in one of my cities, why should I care? They can't do shit as long I prevent infantry from following up

      If you push so many resources into tanks, you will be lacking on other front: MRL, SAM, ASF


      My last game as India I has something like that after 2 weeks:
      3 gunships, 3 Elite Attack Choppers, 1 Rotary Wing Officer, 6 L3 ASF, 3 NASF, 1 Fixed Wing Officer

      My ground forces were simply mot inf, recon and some MAAV

      My score against golden boy with tanks, mech inf, strikers and ASF, all unit max leveled
      I took down 15 strikers, 5 ASF and a unknown number of tanks and mech inf with hardly losing a unit myself, so the score was about 30k to 8k at that time
    • Smallsword wrote:

      it's going to be moving any stack underground at 80 damage per hour,
      Level 1 MBT has 8 attack vs infantry, so ten of them would be 80 damage per hour. Yes.

      BUT: in a city, that is reduced by 25% - so it's only 60. Then the defending infantry gets the 25% entrenchment bonus, so it's now down to 45; if they have bunkers L1, then it's about 33 damage per hour (and 450HP).

      Say the other guy puts 2 CRVs and 8 infantry (L1s - they've got these at the start of the game and paid nothing for them) into the city: that's got an anti-tank value of 28 with 154HP. Your damage is distributed at 80% to infantry and 20% to tanks, so that's about 22 p/h to the infantry and 8 p/h to the CRVs.

      Now, you probably win that engagement, due to your massive HP superiority. But you're going to take some pretty heavy losses, to the point where you probably can't do it again. Whereas, the other guy can replace his cheap-o junk infantry really easily. He'll win a war of attrition, probably quite comfortably.

      If the guy manages to engage your tanks outside of a city, in mountains or jungle where your initial attack values are reduced by 50% due to the terrain, and then another 50-60% by the fortifications (I think L2 Combat Outpost gives you 57%?), you'll probably lose the first battle and your whole strategy is gone up in smoke.

      It'll also take you a little while to build your 10 MBTs, by which time your opponent might well have a TD or 2 or 3 or 4 in his armoury. And if he does, you can forget about it - they will annihilate you on pretty much any terrain except for plains and deserts.

      Granted, most players don't seem to use terrain and fortifications to their advantage, and a lot of them will take one look at a 10-stack of MBTs and just run away (or quit the game altogether if you're attacking his homeland). That's true. But if you come across anyone who stands their ground and fights in a sensible way, then I don't think your strategy is going to work.

      The post was edited 3 times, last by WalterChang ().

    • Very inciteful... I knew this was going to be worth while... I feel like I just learned 2 weeks worth in 2 hours.
      I love this hypothetical war scenario RPG... it's like the pretend war of a pretend war...a simulation of a simulation.


      I think the factor of patience is under represented here.
      If I make my 10 stack of tanks known, but don't push into an engagement that's unfavorable stack vs. stack or unfavorable in terrain...

      @WalterChang
      Would you expect a 10 stack of tanks to not engage?... retreat and redirect? Wait just in front of 1 or more MRL for hours as they scratch away at your defensive posturing?

      Anti-tanks not enjoying their stay? Think maybe it's better to pursue my tanks and reach the 1 MRL? Would you be surprised to see a 10 stack of tanks give up province after province to you... in this formation V...My infantry flank and take the city as this formation appears O.... as I choose a beautiful piece of land to stay centered... just happens to open terrain... your anti tank stack decides it's gone on a fools errand and wants it's city back, it was better just taking 4 damage an hour... sure take it back, I'll give you this formation U... back to the A position.
      Mind you, this can all be done with the starting troops and one towed artillery.

      How much SAM/ASF would I need to defend against such an airpower?@'Kalrakh'
      India is large so it would take quite a while to get to some choice objectives... hell, you may have another built by the time I took 2... or at least an airfield.
      I don't know... but 5 tanks in each airbase city (how many do you have anyway?) would cause you time and headaches if not steep casualties. When your air power is debating whether it's worth landing after an attack you may reconsider how capable tanks can be all by themselves in your city of my choosing.
    • Smallsword wrote:



      How much SAM/ASF would I need to defend against such an airpower?@'Kalrakh'
      India is large so it would take quite a while to get to some choice objectives... hell, you may have another built by the time I took 2... or at least an airfield.
      I don't know... but 5 tanks in each airbase city (how many do you have anyway?) would cause you time and headaches if not steep casualties. When your air power is debating whether it's worth landing after an attack you may reconsider how capable tanks can be all by themselves in your city of my choosing.
      you could have 99 SAMs and it would hardly help you, because choppers do not care about SAMs

      If we talk about only ASF it depends on their level, because my mixed stacks ASF was close to getting T2 which makes them extremely powerful against other ASF even more pure stacks

      15-20 ASF at least if you would want to brute force your way through my air force, but good luck getting that many ASF while still getting 10 tanks ;)

      Afghanistan lost 30k troops without even setting a foot on my territory, and his maxed out unit where quite hurtful to my choppers
      I still shred about 6-9 tanks and 10-20 mech infantry, while got him self slowed down by mountains
      I finished of his stacks with mountain outposts, which made my unit still lose some HP

      I had at 2-3 airports and several airfields


      Given Afghanistan made the tactical error of not walzing through Pakistan with his golden forces, but a player without golden forces would have needed a lot time and effort to get through Pakistan with all the units spamed by the AI :)
    • Sorry what is T2? level 4? @Kalrakh

      Whatever it is I would have to rely on the SAM to do most of the hard hits on the ASF... my ASF would be focused on the helicopters of course.
      I'd need to group tanks and MRL and infantry to take the inevitable hits and have enough of everything survive.
      I would need to focus on a section of your homeland where I could deny your choppers range...destroy airfields and hopefully capture an airbase 2 that would at least survive as an airbase 1 with 4/10 ... I'd need whatever ASF to have a ferry point ASAP. If I can't capture an airbase that's functional I'd need to select an ideal province and post there while my own airfield is being constructed... I'd have to keep a watchful eye on virtually every province within 400 of the frontline... once I found one...maybe two if you're tenacious, I'd need to prepare my next offensive for these provinces.

      If you're lazy about the airfields I'd probably push my borders with you where it was opportunistic.
      My mobilization would have prioritized ASF and their upgrades as soon as it was apparent that you had Helicopters... in the news or when they first attacked me... probably SAM as well if I had the electonics.
      I would try to make any potential province for an airfield that would give your choppers range into my safe space feel vulnerable... deny you the piece of mind that any of them could finish, or even stay at 40 percent without the risk of the choppers being caught on the ground...

      I'd look to an area of your territory with airfields that you aren't using... and push there to expand my safe air zone.
      By this time I've suffered casualties without a doubt. It's messy... I'd encourage any neutral neighbor to open a second front... encourage anyone with naval forces to move to make a beachhead and explain what your forces were, where I knew they were, and how they couldn't possibly handle an additional front and the cities were there for the taking...exaggerated or not.
      My homeland is equally or more exposed and vulnerable, I'd try to mitigate the threat of a new enemy by diplomacy before you got the word to them.
      I think we'd be in a brutal stalemate of sorts and we'd need to enlist an ally to sway the tide in either of our favor...OR we'd need to come to terms of peace before we were both undone by fresh forces of others.

      I guess I'm Pakistan in this scenario. haha, never really got around to "what country am I"
    • Smallsword wrote:

      Sorry what is T2? level 4? @Kalrakh

      Whatever it is I would have to rely on the SAM to do most of the hard hits on the ASF... my ASF would be focused on the helicopters of course.
      I'd need to group tanks and MRL and infantry to take the inevitable hits and have enough of everything survive.
      I would need to focus on a section of your homeland where I could deny your choppers range...destroy airfields and hopefully capture an airbase 2 that would at least survive as an airbase 1 with 4/10 ... I'd need whatever ASF to have a ferry point ASAP. If I can't capture an airbase that's functional I'd need to select an ideal province and post there while my own airfield is being constructed... I'd have to keep a watchful eye on virtually every province within 400 of the frontline... once I found one...maybe two if you're tenacious, I'd need to prepare my next offensive for these provinces.

      If you're lazy about the airfields I'd probably push my borders with you where it was opportunistic.
      My mobilization would have prioritized ASF and their upgrades as soon as it was apparent that you had Helicopters... in the news or when they first attacked me... probably SAM as well if I had the electonics.
      I would try to make any potential province for an airfield that would give your choppers range into my safe space feel vulnerable... deny you the piece of mind that any of them could finish, or even stay at 40 percent without the risk of the choppers being caught on the ground...

      I'd look to an area of your territory with airfields that you aren't using... and push there to expand my safe air zone.
      By this time I've suffered casualties without a doubt. It's messy... I'd encourage any neutral neighbor to open a second front... encourage anyone with naval forces to move to make a beachhead and explain what your forces were, where I knew they were, and how they couldn't possibly handle an additional front and the cities were there for the taking...exaggerated or not.
      My homeland is equally or more exposed and vulnerable, I'd try to mitigate the threat of a new enemy by diplomacy before you got the word to them.
      I think we'd be in a brutal stalemate of sorts and we'd need to enlist an ally to sway the tide in either of our favor...OR we'd need to come to terms of peace before we were both undone by fresh forces of others.

      I guess I'm Pakistan in this scenario. haha, never really got around to "what country am I"

      Units have Tier and Levels, every few levels or sometimes every level the unit changes, which means it switches to a higher Tier.


      My Air force hardly every leaves my country, so good luck trying to down my ASF with your SAMs. You will also have a though time getting my choppers, even more if you do not have AWACs of at least T2

      You would have to go through China to get to my backyard, but China is full of huge mountain provinces, which would make that approach pretty slow


      Not sure for what you want an airport of mine though, your tanks can't fly anyway and if you are Pakistan your own airports should be close enough.

      The most important thing will be, if you are able to take my hospital from me. If not you are doomed to fail. :)
    • Kalrakh wrote:

      Units have Tier and Levels, every few levels or sometimes every level the unit changes, which means it switches to a higher Tier.


      My Air force hardly every leaves my country, so good luck trying to down my ASF with your SAMs. You will also have a though time getting my choppers, even more if you do not have AWACs of at least T2

      You would have to go through China to get to my backyard, but China is full of huge mountain provinces, which would make that approach pretty slow


      Not sure for what you want an airport of mine though, your tanks can't fly anyway and if you are Pakistan your own airports should be close enough.

      The most important thing will be, if you are able to take my hospital from me. If not you are doomed to fail. :)
      Right, I'd have to advance with the SAM and try to get you to split your Helicopters from your planes...
      The idea of taking out the airfields was just so your helicopters wouldn't get the range ...but your planes would still (probably)... Just like 200 or so... a small little foothold where I could get relief from your choppers and could kill your planes if they got to close...
      It's a slow advance, but I wouldn't just send them into a sure deathtrap.

      Reaching airbases with full Tank stacks ... they aren't there except to catch your airpower on the ground ...causing you a lot of ferry time... and if I'm watchful I could see your next choice of airbase/field.


      Oh, that hospital 5? We'd both know where I'd want to go for the endgame.
    • Kalrakh wrote:

      but you are unlikely to afford everything, if you insist of researching tanks, they are already very expensive by themselves :)
      Right...
      I'm trying to think of what I build and when I build it.

      Motorized inf, ASF, and MAA now seem like the early choices...
      I could postpone any recon research/mobilization until I actually need more than 2.
      Tanks perhaps after the first wave of mobilization.
      I think I need a tank commander as early as possible... it's the key to balance out all of those heavy terrain penalties.
      I could get an inf officer sooner, doesn't help so much with the tanks but would help in general.
      I'd need at least one artillery of some kind before making any campaign... I'd want to hold off for the MRL
      SAM I guess would come second string after MRL as I'd need the supplies/electronics/time/space...and research.

      The whole premise of this tank centric build seems like it delays any territory expansion for quite a while.
      When the territory is claimed it takes a long time to reinforce with additional tanks.

      It looks like midgame might be it's strong point.... I'm def an early game thinker so it's tough for me.
      I'd have to rely more on building an economy instead of gaining resources through conquest.
    • such thoughts are good, they help you improve and figuring out ways to improve your tactics

      I doubt we are still talking about day 14 if you want to have 3 AB4 available, without reducing the production of units to heavily

      Also why only AB4? Do you not also need AB3 and 2 for production of lower units?
      Producing tanks or SAMs in a AB4 would be quite the failed investment ;)


      Also I very very rarely build AI in comp cities at all, priority are rare and supply, electronic if i have a heavy need for it, but comp much less likely, at least that early
    • It's the relation between Tanks/ASF vs. MRL/SAM that make me think the balance of supplies/components is ok.... but they all need a good deal of electronics...

      Army base 2 of course... I thought it was kind of implied.
      Arms industry 1 in each city....
      I'd have to research SAM before MRL and start mobilizing with Army base 3s to keep my resources balanced.
      More realistically I'd only have one army base 4 with two army base 3s that I'd want to turn into 4s..and 3 army base 2s...
      Maybe just one airbase since ASFs are less need with both MAA and SAM

      I would want to mobilize MRL at a high rate...the need of building the Army base 4's just slow the whole thing down....
      That's why I've always gone for towed artillery in my typical strategy build: having an army base 2 in every city is very realistic.

      I used to play Starcraft...ever play it?... The experience of getting blitzed out by Zerg is one I had in my early years.... and the wound never really healed.

      The "build for mid-game" mindset is hard for me to get behind... I'm trying, though.