Massive Naval Rework

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    • Massive Naval Rework

      Modern ships fire with missiles, this game treats modern ships like WWII era battleships.

      This suggestion will lay out a plan that will fix this and create a new system that would work to give naval battles far greater depth than its current state. Right now, the Naval battles are really lacking.
      This suggestion will shift the focus from the ships themselves to the missiles. Naval missiles will work differently from current cruise missiles. Naval missiles will reload when the ship is in a friendly dock. They will cost some resources to make, but they won't be a unit that is built (maybe 100 computers 50 rare mats and 100 components, idk). What will happen is when a ship is in a friendly dock that has a missile factory (new building) reloading missiles, the ship will be out of service for a certain number of hours, but that will go down as the ship gets upgraded.

      Missiles and ship weapons.
      There will be two types of missiles that are different from cruise missiles

      * Anti-ship

      - These missiles have and attack rating and damage rating
      - The missiles will start with an attack rating of 2, each upgrade will increase this rating by 1, and increase damage


      * Defensive anti-missiles missiles

      - These missiles will have a defense rating that starts at 1
      - An attacking missile when detected with an attack of 2 triggers the right of number of defensive missiles needed. If the defensive missile has a rating of 1, then 2 will be fired
      -The defensive missiles will start with a rating of 1 and increase by 1 by each upgrade. This will give the attacking missile the advantage which reflects modern naval combat.

      * CWIS (close in weapon system)
      - not a missile, but a last-ditch defense that will have a rating of 1 but can only fire at once missile every ten minutes. That time will never change to prevent CWIS from becoming OP
      - will be upgraded with the upgrade of the ship.

      * Cannon

      - this will work like a normal attack; this can be used to attack surface ships including troop transports.
      - This gun will have far lower damage than current ones with 5 damage max.
      - this will not be upgradeable


      * Cruise missiles

      - They will stay the same as current system, will not take up naval missile magazine space, but cruise missiles will not be able to attack ships.


      Upgrade system
      * Tech Tree

      - Once you research the ship, researching missiles will be a separate tech tree that is independent from the main tech tree, but it will have its own 2 slots. Researching missiles
      will cost less materials/rare materials and take less time. Maybe 250-500(max) rare mats and a static 8 hours research no matter what upgrade in order to keep investment costs low
      - Ships. Upgrading your ship (in the normal tech tree) will not upgrade your missiles, that will be separate as mentioned.
      - Upgrading ships will upgrade CWIS, hull HP, radar, missile fire range, and missile magazine capacity.
      -upgrading missiles, will upgrade their max range, but they still rely on targeting data from its home ship or allied ship. max range at max level 300. If a friendly unit spots an enemy surface vessel, the missile will be able to travel further than the ship detection range

      How missiles interact with the ships and planes.

      * Ships control the range the naval missiles can target surface vessels, and how many naval missiles the ship can hold.

      - Destroyers will start out with a magazine of 10 while cruisers will start out with 15
      - The players will get to choose themselves how many missiles of each type go on each ship that is selected when reloading at the dock.

      - Naval strike fighters at gen 2 will be able to fire 1 anti-ship missile that will draw from the carrier magazine. Carrier will not be able to fire but will hold missiles for the planes. Only 2 generation carriers can do this. 2 gen holds 10 anti-ship missiles while gen 3 holds 15.
      - Naval patrol craft will be able to fire a max of 2 anti-ship missiles
      - Ships that take damage will have reduced speed, and radar range.




      Why build destroyers you might ask? For their anti-sub abilities and lower cost. Frigates will have a few missiles (5), but their main purpose is anti-air. Their guns will be nerfed down to 4. Corvettes will remain the same. This rework actually gives them a purpose now. Why spend valuable missiles on undefended transport ships if you can use your corvette instead? This rework adds a lot of strategy and content. This will make planning naval attacks a lot harder since you will need to reload your missiles. You will also need far more resources to maintain a sea invasion because you will need to constantly arm your vessels. This also allows ships to potentially survive an attack without taking damage.

      Please let me know your thoughts and ideas and give a like if you like this. I spent a lot of time (over 1 hour) and effort writing this and making it easy to read, I would appreciate the support.
    • Well - These sorts of suggestions are aimed at the developers as much as they are aimed at the players who might clamor for them (or detest them).

      So, the most fundamental changes I see you suggesting are:
      • Upgrading the game mechanics to keep track of finite numbers of "bullets" per individual ship.
      • Upgrading the game's units and tech tree to include naval missiles.
      • Perhaps altering the game mechanics to convert naval engagements into user-managed "How many missiles do I want to fire now" sessions instead of "Shoot at each other until one stack is dead (or until I run out of bullets?)" sessions.
      That all seems like a pretty tall order.

      The bookkeeping that would occur when ship stacks get rearranged (Ship A moves from stack X to stack Y, then Ship B moves from stack Y to stack Z, the Ship C moves from Stack Z to ...) might become pretty messy, or have to be frustratingly uncontrollable from the players' point-of-view.

      You might be asking for too much upheaval compared to the gameplay payoff.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by KFGauss ().

    • KFGauss wrote:

      Well - These sorts of suggestions are aimed at the developers as much as they are aimed at the players who might clamor for them (or detest them).

      So, the most fundamental changes I see you suggesting are:
      • Upgrading the game mechanics to keep track of finite numbers of "bullets" per individual ship.
      • Upgrading the game's units and tech tree to include naval missiles.
      • Perhaps altering the game mechanics to convert naval engagements into user-managed "How many missiles do I want to fire now" sessions instead of "Shoot at each other until one stack is dead" sessions.
      That all seems like a pretty tall order.

      The bookkeeping that would occur when ship stacks get rearranged (Ship A moves from stack X to stack Y, then Ship B moves from stack Y to stack Z, the Ship C moves from Stack Z to ...) might become pretty messy, or have to be frustratingly uncontrollable from the players' point-of-view.

      You might be asking for too much upheaval compared to the gameplay payoff.
      I know this is a lot, but I feel it is better to suggest than not say anything at all. Oh, and you did mention something I forgot; you choose how many missiles you want to fire. For bookkeeping attacking you choose [launch naval missile] (so it is not confused with guns attack) then it will ask you which ship in the stack fires them. There is some architecture already there that come from cruise missiles since ships can only hold a certain amount before they reload. They will have to modify it of course (tallying missiles per ship and not per stack). You can take missile interaction from architecture in planes. Each rating on the missiles can act as damage and health on a plane, but they will have to modify it so standard AA doesn't interfere plus combine it with cruise missile attack. It would be nice to have animations for the defensive missiles, but they may not be needed in order for the main mechanic. I feel the hardest part will be the new mini tech tree

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Lionheart ().

    • Lionheart wrote:

      would you explain why? saying you are baseline and saying you are not a fan doesn't mean much.

      Instead of updating every map maybe have certain maps have it while others don't. Maybe an island heavy map.

      that way people who want proper naval combat can have this while others can play without it
      because I'm an air conditionier, duh



      Lionheart wrote:

      Modern ships fire with missiles, this game treats modern ships like WWII era battleships.
      As do MRl or aircraft in air to air combat or strike fighters killing ground units or infantry... they all shoot missiles to; just all of that on a way smaller scale then cruise/ballistic/intercontinental missiles
      pretty much summed up under "generic attack move"

      Lionheart wrote:

      There will be two types of missiles that are different from cruise missiles

      * Anti-ship

      - These missiles have and attack rating and damage rating
      - The missiles will start with an attack rating of 2, each upgrade will increase this rating by 1, and increase damage

      * Defensive anti-missiles missiles

      - These missiles will have a defense rating that starts at 1
      - An attacking missile when detected with an attack of 2 triggers the right of number of defensive missiles needed. If the defensive missile has a rating of 1, then 2 will be fired
      -The defensive missiles will start with a rating of 1 and increase by 1 by each upgrade. This will give the attacking missile the advantage which reflects modern naval combat.

      * CWIS (close in weapon system)
      - not a missile, but a last-ditch defense that will have a rating of 1 but can only fire at once missile every ten minutes. That time will never change to prevent CWIS from becoming OP
      - will be upgraded with the upgrade of the ship.

      * Cannon

      - this will work like a normal attack; this can be used to attack surface ships including troop transports.
      - This gun will have far lower damage than current ones with 5 damage max.
      - this will not be upgradeable


      * Cruise missiles

      - They will stay the same as current system, will not take up naval missile magazine space, but cruise missiles will not be able to attack ships.
      Frankly this seems to me more like a roundabout way to try and introduce ammunition and supply lines; except only for navy and all other units will be spared from it, would probably be a massive nerf to navy tbh
      Especially "Anti-Ship Missile" is quite silly imo (and wouldnt they make frigates the strongest possible naval vessel by default? simply by virtue of completely no-selling any sort of missile based attack; which navy in your version does pretty much rely on?)

      CWIS does confuse me; simply because:
      a) works completely different from current aa mechanics, but still pretty much works as aa (so a completely new mechanic needed for that one? really?)
      b) what about already existing AA? pointdefense on really any ship has an easy job outright no-selling low HP missiles (or do ships now get their own special AA system that prevents completely no-selling missile attacks because that'd be convenient for your idea to actually have a chance to work?)

      also: all of that is delightfully vague, how exactly would these changes impact the different kind of ships we have ? will all ships just have to spam missiles and frigates just sit there and laugh? With Units having to return to harbos to refill, does that mean that ships will have less HP to make these engagements faster? Or Will the Missile DMG just be that insane? Are there any special conditions the port needs to fulfill to be able to restock? (eg: can a level 1 port already refill? [There is no "Missile Factory?]), What is compensating for the immense increase in cost of naval warfare? Naval Warfare is already in a weird place in terms of pacing, why make that pacing even slower?

      Lionheart wrote:

      - Once you research the ship, researching missiles will be a separate tech tree that is independent from the main tech tree, but it will have its own 2 slots. Researching missiles will cost less materials/rare materials and take less time. Maybe 250-500(max) rare mats and a static 8 hours research no matter what upgrade in order to keep investment costs low
      - Ships. Upgrading your ship (in the normal tech tree) will not upgrade your missiles, that will be separate as mentioned.
      - Upgrading ships will upgrade CWIS, hull HP, radar, missile fire range, and missile magazine capacity.
      -upgrading missiles, will upgrade their max range, but they still rely on targeting data from its home ship or allied ship. max range at max level 300. If a friendly unit spots an enemy surface vessel, the missile will be able to travel further than the ship detection range
      Not really a fan of making naval warfare even more expensive, also think that having both ship and missile level have an impact on the same stat is kinda redundant (and not even sure if its actually possible; there is not a single unit that has an impact on the range of "normal" missiles). And how much further will the missile be able to travel? that again is incredible vague



      Lionheart wrote:

      - Ships that take damage will have reduced speed, and radar range.
      so on top of the usual "dealing less dmg per HP" they will also be slower/less radar range? and that is exclusive to ships? thats quite silly
      My first instict was to go and say "with how naval warfare works you might as well instantly kill them because speed is pretty important" but then with missiles being a thing? These penalties for damage might as well not exist, because they wont outrun the missiles anyway and reduced radar range is .... kinda eh; really any any naval player with any experience will have awacs so that is also pretty irrelevant
      With punishing ships even harder then usually for taking damage, there isnt any way to speed up their normal healing? yikes


      TBH my core issues are mostly:
      - inventing new mechanics on the fly and then not elaborating on them; simply stating that they now exist
      - these new mechanics being appearently exclusive to naval warfare, which imo is an incredible bad idea because as bad as con is, there is a consistency of mechanics across the different types of units
      - only giving "detailed" numbers when convenient and avoiding to mention any of that would interact with already existing mechanics (easiest example are the missiles themselves: What is their HP? Their DMG? Their Speed?)
      - says "Massive Naval Rework" but the only real "big" change is the missile thing; so uhm... thats it for the massive rework? okay yes it'd have a pretty big impact on how navy vs navy plays but with all the options navy offers you the really only big change is "haha missiles go brrt"? thats frankly somewhat disappointing; it puts it in a somewhat odd place between "low effort" and "you clearly put effort into this but its not great"
      -
      I am The Baseline for opinions
    • "because I'm an air conditionier, duh" LMAO

      "will all ships just have to spam missiles and frigates"
      With this rework normal AA and frigates won't be able to target anti-ship missiles with standard AA. Missiles will be separate from the gun attack. So, frigate's AA won't be able to interact with anti-ship missiles.

      "so on top of the usual "dealing less dmg per HP" they will also be slower/less radar range? and that is exclusive to ships? thats quite silly
      My first instict was to go and say "with how naval warfare works you might as well instantly kill them because speed is pretty important" but then with missiles being a thing? These penalties for damage might as well not exist, because they wont outrun the missiles anyway and reduced radar range is .... kinda eh; really any any naval player with any experience will have awacs so that is also pretty irrelevant
      With punishing ships even harder then usually for taking damage, there isnt any way to speed up their normal healing? yikes"

      The reason I had unusual damage effects was because a damaged ship that fires missiles won't have any less of an attack. That was an effort of balance things.
      If you have a better idea on how to balance the damage (because it is missiles) having little effect on combat ability, I am open to suggestions and welcome criticism because that makes my concept better and work better.

      keep in mind this will reduce all cannon damage to 5 per ship, that is why it is a rework, it changes how you would fight

      "- these new mechanics being apparently exclusive to naval warfare, which imo is an incredible bad idea because as bad as con is, there is a consistency of mechanics across the different types of units"

      I felt that naval warfare was hurt the most with this simple system. I don't feel the need for it to apply elsewhere.

      " only giving "detailed" numbers when convenient and avoiding to mention any of that would interact with already existing mechanics (easiest example are the missiles themselves: What is their HP? Their DMG? Their Speed?)"
      "inventing new mechanics on the fly and then not elaborating on them; simply stating that they now exist"

      I was not sure what speeds they should be so I didn't want to just impose random numbers when they were not needed to explain the concept. I did not want to give details that weren't relevant to the main ideas. It took me over an hour to write just that, if I went into all the details, it would be too big and take too long. I also wanted to leave the numbers to people who would be far better at giving them than me. I felt numbers I would give wouldn't be good. If you want to know how certain details, ask and I can give a response. What I wrote was not intended to be the final, I wanted your and other people's input on the idea.

      "Navy is fine... And BTW not alot of real Navy v Navy battles since WW2.

      If you want missiles; research cruise missiles and most ships can launch. You want your Anti missile Missile, mix in some frigs. DONE!!

      Stopped reading after that."

      That is boring. Cruise missiles don't do jack with well upgraded frigates.
    • „I felt that naval warfare was hurt the most with this simple system. I don't feel the need for it to apply elsewhere.„ it doesn’t hurt just navy in general tho; consistent game mechanics are a nice thing to have and this is just overkill, especially if nerfing navy is the goal then adjusting existing values is a lot better than just throwing new mechanics at an already existing system
      I am The Baseline for opinions