Debunking the Arms Industry Myth

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    • Zozo001 wrote:

      jemandanderes wrote:

      ... you don't seem to be really making effective use of your resources.
      LOL bold statement from someone arguing to forego 27% of homeland production available ;-(.
      No I did not. Never said that. I said that you always have to take into consideration for how long the game is going t last when planning on upgrading arms industry. And you are also not addressing my actual arguments. Please reread my last post and if you still have something to say please in your answer also refer to the arguments I used.
      a.k.a. jem and and eres
    • jemandanderes wrote:

      Zozo001 wrote:

      jemandanderes wrote:

      ... you don't seem to be really making effective use of your resources.
      LOL bold statement from someone arguing to forego 27% of homeland production available ;-(.
      No I did not. Never said that. I said that you always have to take into consideration for how long the game is going t last when planning on upgrading arms industry. And you are also not addressing my actual arguments. Please reread my last post and if you still have something to say please in your answer also refer to the arguments I used.
      He is referring to fuel.
      Overkill is an Awesome Map! :D
    • nah sorry man but you don't convince me. First off the arms industry is the cheapest unit to boost resource production. Even if you're right about the recouping, don't you think other buildings you spent will have recouping costs? Like for example building bunkers which are tremendously expensive and those recouping costs will be much longer not only because morale boost is not as effective but also like i said enormous cost. And sure, like you said, conquering is important for resources but why not, you know, conquer and lv up arms industries at the same time? I just don't get it man... maybe i'm too dumb for this but i can't see the high iq play here . To me it just seems so straightforward to invest in them
    • jemandanderes wrote:

      Never said that [forego 27% of homeland production available].
      You argued that multiple times the cost of recouping the ArmI building cost should be taken into consideration (thus making ArmI seem too expensive). Then also implied that mobilizing units is a better use of resources than spending on ArmI upgrade. Both of these statements point to keeping ArmI at Lvl1, instead of getting the full production available with Lvl5, i.e. relegating yourself to 27% less homeland production.

      jemandanderes wrote:

      I said that you always have to take into consideration for how long the game is going to last when planning on upgrading arms industry. And you are also not addressing my actual arguments. Please reread my last post and if you still have something to say please in your answer also refer to the arguments I used.
      OK then, I can dissect your arguments.

      OFC I fully agree that the time horizon of the game is a crucial consideration.
      What I disagreed with is making a comparison to a ROI multiple times longer than it takes for the relevant resource(s) to be recouped.

      Your last post said:
      No you don't [[i]have 1 limiting resource[/i]] You can alway make more units.

      Then you described a situation (an army of MRL, SAM, ASF, mot. INF, NG, frigs and destroyers) where you seem to have Supplies as the tightest resource, followed by Components. Your setup uses less Electronics, and you mentioned Fuel possibly not limiting (as it usually is not). You were not talking about RareM here, but after a certain point research is limited by the capacity of 2 pipelines and not by the resources necessary.
      So overall this rather confirmed my point you meant to refute.

      You added some hand-waving on how making more infantry would supposedly balance resource utilization. But this is an incongruent argument, for two reasons. One is that infantries take more Supplies than Components (and no other RSS ofc). The other, more fundamental one, is that this does not address the underlying question: how can the mobilization of more units make up for the missing production, that your economy would not generate due to the unupgraded ArmI?
      Commander Zozo001 :thumbsup:
      humble player
    • There is a point about when it's best build upgrades to arms industry, though (if you choose to do it at all).

      To my mind, it isn't worth it for probably the first couple of weeks - except perhaps in the Rare Material city. This is because it's costing you rare material to build the thing, and that's going to delay your research. And the more 'dead' hours you have on your research slots in the early game, the more that's going to put you behind later on. Once people are doing 2 researches at once all the time, you can't catch them up, however high your resource production is.

      Expansion is the best way to up your resource production, but I reckon it might be worth investing in industry in just the Rare Material city during the early phase of expansion, because you get the RM back quite quickly. The other resources are less crucial at that point in the game, because it's RM that's causing a block on your research progress, and you can catch up with unit numbers later.

      I'd wait to build up industry in the other cities until I can afford to do it on top of having already set my research and unit mobilization priorities. And that tends to be a lot later on in the game overall.
    • WalterChang wrote:

      There is a point about when it's best build upgrades to arms industry, though (if you choose to do it at all).

      To my mind, it isn't worth it for probably the first couple of weeks - except perhaps in the Rare Material city. This is because it's costing you rare material to build the thing, and that's going to delay your research. And the more 'dead' hours you have on your research slots in the early game, the more that's going to put you behind later on. Once people are doing 2 researches at once all the time, you can't catch them up, however high your resource production is.

      Expansion is the best way to up your resource production, but I reckon it might be worth investing in industry in just the Rare Material city during the early phase of expansion, because you get the RM back quite quickly. The other resources are less crucial at that point in the game, because it's RM that's causing a block on your research progress, and you can catch up with unit numbers later.

      I'd wait to build up industry in the other cities until I can afford to do it on top of having already set my research and unit mobilization priorities. And that tends to be a lot later on in the game overall.
      I have to agree with you really, having upgraded units asap is relly the name of the game
    • Data referred from my math at the beginning.

      2.26 value is the resources you earn in between upgrading to lv.5 arms, end at day 6.
      2.26 value = 3844 for supply city, 3295 for comp, 2196 for rare, 3844 for fuel, 2745 for elec

      total cost for lv5 arms in one city is 2425 sup, 2425 comp, 1475 rare, 2100 fuel, 1600 elec.
      so what ever city you build on would refund the specific resources type in 6 day.

      ok what if you have 5 city and do this? That is another story because the cost is sky rocket with same return.
      tho you need to keep in mind that resources Bottle neck is real.

      arms isn't about just improve production, it also about shifting production. You paid in everything to improve one particular resources.
      same deal go to annexation.
      This post was made by Leader of the Church of ROAD
    • So this seems a long story so let's simplify it by simple calculations

      So let's say you started on day 1-10 and only building arms industry till level 5
      here are the consumption and start date

      Day 1 Supplies - 10,000 x 10 x 24 = 34,000 supplies without arms industry and 100 supplies being made an hour
      lvl 1-5 consumption calculation 2450, so this will leave u at number of 31,550, without producing any units of course.
      this will make ur production go from 100 h a day add 50% and its 150 per hour so therefore will only make it take 5-7 days to get that much supplies
      etc. can go to all other materials, but this will give your opponents time to attack your cities, so it's good to stack your troops against a vulnerable enemy.

      So long story short:
      Army Base, Air Base, Naval base, they are all needed, arms industry shall always be level 1 in every city, because the resource production doesn't change a lot, it's good to continue invading one after the other.
      "Success is not final, Failure is NOT fatal. I DON'T CARE if your sick, I DON'T CARE what your going through, if you're not dead, he ain't through you yet. As long as you're alive you CAN STILL MAKE IT HAPPEN. As long as there's breath in your nostrils, boo, you're still in the game, you still can win."
    • PaskalSF wrote:

      let's simplify it by simple calculations
      ... So long story short: arms industry shall always be level 1 in every city, because the resource production doesn't change a lot
      Your simplistic calculation does not support your conclusion, though. Resource production IS raised a lot by ArmI Lvl5 vs. Lvl1.

      Your additional comment on going on to conquer is irrelevant, as the ArmI builder would do just the same.
      Commander Zozo001 :thumbsup:
      humble player
    • playbabe wrote:

      Upkeep: Hello there

      Edit: ok imma do some meth to minimize your number. I would say that not counting population and morale is your fetal issue. because they are all multiplier.
      First of all OP I appreciate this topic being covered. However as mentioned above, I do not think excel documentation will ever be accurate, simply because dorado does not make available all the factors you’d need to consider for an actual result. The best we can do is have an educated guess. I think arms max is the way to go if you play at least 40 days, based on experience. And if max arms doesn’t give you the optimal max economy, then I’d argue the game is fundamentally flawed.
      CDR Crimson
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    • CDRCrimson42 wrote:

      ... dorado does not make available all the factors
      It is an unfortunate truth that Dorade obfuscates whatever it can about the game mechanics.
      But the resource production is not such a thing (and neither is population growth), however. It is indeed exactly known just as playbabe's spreadsheet describes.

      You can easily check this for yourself, alas.
      Commander Zozo001 :thumbsup:
      humble player
    • Guys can someone give us a conclusion?
      "Success is not final, Failure is NOT fatal. I DON'T CARE if your sick, I DON'T CARE what your going through, if you're not dead, he ain't through you yet. As long as you're alive you CAN STILL MAKE IT HAPPEN. As long as there's breath in your nostrils, boo, you're still in the game, you still can win."
    • So ...
      Building arms industry upgrades will increase your resource production over the course of a game. However, if you prioritize spending resources on arms industry upgrades instead of mobilising units and/or doing research (especially in the early game), you're likely to find yourself up against opponents who have more and better level units than you, which will put you at a disadvantage.
      If you keep on expanding your territory throughout the game, you probably don't need to upgrade the arms industry at all beyond level one, except as a precaution against sabotage/bomb damage.

      Is that about right?
    • WalterChang wrote:

      So ...
      ...if you prioritize spending resources on arms industry upgrades instead of mobilising units and/or doing research (especially in the early game), ...


      Is that about right?
      Yes, I do concur with not sacrificing research/mobilization for the sake of senseless economy expansion, sure.

      I still strongly disagree that expanding territory (which one would need/want to do in any event) would make thoughtful ArmI buildup
      unnecessary/useless, though. (Restricting one's own production means throwing away an opportunity of researching/mobilizing more units - and thus the potential of expanding faster.)

      But I guess it is time to close the thread on this note.
      Commander Zozo001 :thumbsup:
      humble player

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Zozo001 ().

    • What I meant was, if you are able to expand continuously without pause for the whole course of the game, the territory you capture will probably pay for the increasing costs of your military upkeep and mobilization, without the need for you to upgrade your industry.
      If you pause expansion in order to consolidate, or because there is nowhere left to go without getting into a major war with a strong opponent/coalition, then you're going to need to upgrade arms industries and local industries in order to keep up with the resource demands of mobilising new units and leveling them up.

      I don't know if that's a fail-safe description (I doubt it!), but that's the general rule I tend to follow.