Announcement Official Season 9 Unit FEEDBACK thread

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    • Comments:

      1a) unable to stack. It's fun to stack carriers so I can bring 10-15 aircrafts without upgrading the carrier.
      1b) maybe the elite helicopter is the better seasonal unit to bring back this season because it works with the elite frigate

      2a) the 75 atk range of the elite frigate makes it nice to stack it with a navy officer and cruisers early only but the research requirements (corvette and frigate) negate that so...
      2b) how about an elite destroyer instead? with anti-air atk and carrier capacity as well, plus the 75 range. this way, I can create an early stack of navy officer + cruisers + elite destroyer

      The post was edited 1 time, last by regatta2k16 ().

    • regatta2k16 wrote:

      1a) unable to stack. It's fun to stack carriers so I can bring 10-15 aircrafts without upgrading the carrier.
      1b) maybe the elite helicopter is the better seasonal unit to bring back this season because it works with the elite frigate

      2a) the 75 atk range of the elite frigate makes it nice to stack it with a navy officer and cruisers early only but the research requirements (corvette and frigate) negate that so...
      2b) how about an elite destroyer instead? with anti-air atk and carrier capacity as well, plus the 75 range. this way, I can create an early stack of navy officer + cruisers + elite destroyer
      2a - I don't think corvette and frigate pre-requisites are a problem. Corvettes are the fastest ships you can get out and 1 or 2 ships, even if they are weak, can lock an opponent out of the water and prevent them from building navy bases of their own so corvette is almost always an auto-research anyway IMO. Frigate is also an auto-research for AA and missile defense. No matter what warship I go for, Frigates are my support ship.

      2b - I would be against this. I think destroyers would have too early and strong of a power spike if you gave them AA. Throwing in 75 range and carrier support just seems absurd to me. The destroyer can address all naval threats and air threats are it's only weakness (granted cruisers beat it, but cruisers are hard countered by submarines). As it is, you cannot get away with a single ship line. A destroyer with AA would mean you could invest in a single ship line and be able to fight all threats. I think this would be bad for tactics.

      ----

      I don't think I've seen enough of the Elite Frigate to get a sense of whether it's weak, balanced, or OP but I'm leaning toward balanced.

      1 - even 2 helicopters is enough to project meaningful strength in the early game when the cost of air bases hurts a lot.
      2 - range 75 is a nice perk. With low attack and an inability to stack, it's nice to at least get the first shot off against early ships
      3 - the 125 radar range makes this ship quite unique
      4 - the possibility of ASW heli's in the middle of the ocean is definitely scary for submarine players (like me) even if it's probably not going to be super common to see. I think this is good since submarines are the closest thing there is to a single unit that can dominate the ocean
      5 - it has good anti-helicopter attack

      With regard to stacking 5 helicopters on one Elite Frigate, I think this sounds too strong. Especially if, when elite frigates can stack properly, all the helicopters they carry are one stack (which I think makes sense... and when you split, you have to create a split that solves carrier capacity). If you can stack 2 elite frigates and get a 4 or 6 stack of helicopters without having to invest in carriers (level 5 navy base, research, and cost), that's pretty strong.

      I think the ship brings a lot of utility and potential. Point 5 alone is a reason you could tech into them late game. Point 3 brings out-play ability even without NPA is you can micro heavily. Point 1 is a reason to tech into them early game. At the same time, the ships seems pretty weak in navy battles itself so, as I said in the beginning, it seems like a balanced unit to me. It's potential will grow when it can stack too.

    • if stacked with other ships elite frig eat lots of damage(damage distribution) getting your valuable helicopters destroyed.
      They are a dead trap at see when hunted by submarines. I mean try to take out 200 HP of a fully submarine stack in deep water coming towards you with 2 asw. even 5 wil have a hrd time ifnow leveled to the top. and who has resources to level them for this sole surpose they provide.
      @Dorado If you Close the Forum and move everything to Discord you will lose my Feedback for sure.

    • kurtvonstein wrote:

      if stacked with other ships elite frig eat lots of damage(damage distribution) getting your valuable helicopters destroyed.
      They are a dead trap at see when hunted by submarines. I mean try to take out 200 HP of a fully submarine stack in deep water coming towards you with 2 asw. even 5 wil have a hrd time ifnow leveled to the top. and who has resources to level them for this sole surpose they provide.
      Yeah, their low HP means you are risking your helicopters. It's apparent, the person who has intel (NPA, AWACs, Radar, etc.) about the other's position, and who is active enough to capitalize on it will have the advantage (as with everything in CoN).

      Elite frigate can run from the submarines while the helicopters make trips to bomb them. It all depends.

      As I said, I don't think e frig + ASW helis will be common because, as you said, who wants to spend research on that. However, it's a possibility and the possibility is scary to subs. If the ASW helicopter player finds you over night, they can melt you stack in a couple hours without taking a lick of damage themselves.

    • Imagine saying 2 helis is enough to project power.
      Tell me it is enough when 2 Helis take a lot of damage and forever to heal. Let’s be honest here, 2 helis against an MAA is going to suck, 5 helis on the other hand instantly could boost you’re damaging capability from 8-9 to almost 30+-, where if you focus on only soft you can get 45 inf damage.

      Again imagine saying 2 helis is enough.
      The ship needs now only ASW helis, if not it’s ability to support naval invasions instantly reduces its utterly horrendous value.
      Sure other than air and missile defence, subs are relatively cheap other than cost in electronics. E frigs are just purely support units unlike Frigates, where they can actually join in the fight, still go balls to the walls and not utterly decimate one’s capability to continue fighting.
      note e frigs has less HP than max frigs if i remember correctly.

    • japan samurai wrote:

      Imagine saying 2 helis is enough to project power.
      It is plenty to clean up insurgents, straggler infantry, etc. After you take down someone's homeland, you still have to finish taking all their land and burning cities to finish the war... MAA is THE counter to helicopters (save ASF) so... yeah, helicopters are going to loose against MAA. Generally speaking, Elite frigates let you avoid making extra air bases to cover lightly guarded areas which means more resources into units.

      Getting full-stack helicopter carriers out of level 3 navy bases seems a little too good (and unrealistic) to me.

    • Rainmaker2112 wrote:

      japan samurai wrote:

      Imagine saying 2 helis is enough to project power.
      It is plenty to clean up insurgents, straggler infantry, etc. After you take down someone's homeland, you still have to finish taking all their land and burning cities to finish the war... MAA is THE counter to helicopters (save ASF) so... yeah, helicopters are going to loose against MAA. Generally speaking, Elite frigates let you avoid making extra air bases to cover lightly guarded areas which means more resources into units.
      Getting full-stack helicopter carriers out of level 3 navy bases seems a little too good (and unrealistic) to me.
      Then increase to level 4 naval base. I'm not looking at this as any part of land unit suppression force, but rather a complete naval counter to other naval stacks out there, submarines included. There is an a disadvantage against submarines already. You can't touch them with cruise missiles, SF nor EAA can hit them. Also, as you and others have mentioned previously, a sub officer with a full stack is incredibly difficult to bust. It just makes sense to have 5 slots on the Elite Frigate for Tier 3. I don't care what level naval yard you've got to construct, but Tier 3 would be great with 5 Helicopter slots. Maybe it's the OCD coming out, but I just can't bare to see a stack of only 3 helicopters. What an ugly/incomplete feeling stack :D .
      The beatings will continue until morale improves!

    • Cpt_Merica wrote:

      Then increase to level 4 naval base. I'm not looking at this as any part of land unit suppression force, but rather a complete naval counter to other naval stacks out there, submarines included. There is an a disadvantage against submarines already. You can't touch them with cruise missiles, SF nor EAA can hit them. Also, as you and others have mentioned previously, a sub officer with a full stack is incredibly difficult to bust. It just makes sense to have 5 slots on the Elite Frigate for Tier 3. I don't care what level naval yard you've got to construct, but Tier 3 would be great with 5 Helicopter slots. Maybe it's the OCD coming out, but I just can't bare to see a stack of only 3 helicopters. What an ugly/incomplete feeling stack .
      I hear you on the incomplete feeling... I assume this will be addressed when elite frigates can stack...

      Personally, I wouldn't want a "complete naval counter to other naval stacks". The rock paper scissors aspect (which is layered) is what make things interesting.

      I personally think what the elite frigate gives you already provides a lot of potential. I like that it only costs a level 3 navy base. If it's harder to get to, it's less viable/interesting. I don't gold, but I "try-hard" to win so to me, the difference between a level 3 and level 4 navy base is pretty big when I could spend those resources and time on other units.


      Basically every game I focus on having naval dominance - it just makes or breaks most games. Once you have naval dominance, the next problem to solve is projecting power inland for invasions. Carriers give you an air base that can't be sabotaged, can't be easily bombed, and is mobile. I love that the elite frigate give you a bit of this capability for much less investment. Sometimes you don't need much fire power, just a little in the right place. I would prefer the awkward 3 carrier limit and level 3 navy base requirement over more capacity but higher cost to get going.

      Plus, it's not supposed to be a helicopter air craft carrier. I think it's potential is in finessing situations where you need the little unique things the elite frigate can give to find the weak spot.

      Like I said, I am guessing when you can group elite frigates, you can group your stacks and this alone will be a big power spike.

    • Rainmaker2112 wrote:

      Cpt_Merica wrote:

      Then increase to level 4 naval base. I'm not looking at this as any part of land unit suppression force, but rather a complete naval counter to other naval stacks out there, submarines included. There is an a disadvantage against submarines already. You can't touch them with cruise missiles, SF nor EAA can hit them. Also, as you and others have mentioned previously, a sub officer with a full stack is incredibly difficult to bust. It just makes sense to have 5 slots on the Elite Frigate for Tier 3. I don't care what level naval yard you've got to construct, but Tier 3 would be great with 5 Helicopter slots. Maybe it's the OCD coming out, but I just can't bare to see a stack of only 3 helicopters. What an ugly/incomplete feeling stack .
      I hear you on the incomplete feeling... I assume this will be addressed when elite frigates can stack...
      Personally, I wouldn't want a "complete naval counter to other naval stacks". The rock paper scissors aspect (which is layered) is what make things interesting.

      I personally think what the elite frigate gives you already provides a lot of potential. I like that it only costs a level 3 navy base. If it's harder to get to, it's less viable/interesting. I don't gold, but I "try-hard" to win so to me, the difference between a level 3 and level 4 navy base is pretty big when I could spend those resources and time on other units.


      Basically every game I focus on having naval dominance - it just makes or breaks most games. Once you have naval dominance, the next problem to solve is projecting power inland for invasions. Carriers give you an air base that can't be sabotaged, can't be easily bombed, and is mobile. I love that the elite frigate give you a bit of this capability for much less investment. Sometimes you don't need much fire power, just a little in the right place. I would prefer the awkward 3 carrier limit and level 3 navy base requirement over more capacity but higher cost to get going.

      Plus, it's not supposed to be a helicopter air craft carrier. I think it's potential is in finessing situations where you need the little unique things the elite frigate can give to find the weak spot.

      Like I said, I am guessing when you can group elite frigates, you can group your stacks and this alone will be a big power spike.
      Understandably so. Frigate's, in real life, are not really meant to house a complete complement of helicopters, that's for sure. The chances of my coming up against a stack of 5 subs, one of which being an officer, is usually quite rare. I think I've only seen it once. Damn hard to kill. Here would be my compromise... if they will not allow for Tier 3 to have 5 helicopters, then I would at least expect to be able to field this stack: 1 Naval Officer, 2 Destroyers, 2 Elite Frigates (6 ASW Helicopters) at the very least. I still think there is a good case made for being able to have a Tier 3 Elite Frigate contain 5 slots, but lets begin with some common ground first. So thoughts on stacking 2 Elite Frigates?
      The beatings will continue until morale improves!

    • Rainmaker2112 wrote:

      Cpt_Merica wrote:

      but lets begin with some common ground first. So thoughts on stacking 2 Elite Frigates?
      Agreed! I think elite frigates should stack and I the air crafts on them should stack. So, in your proposed stack, yes, you'd have 6 helicopters where you can send out a 5 stack and have a spare. :)
      Perfect! Then we agree that Tier 3 Elite Frigates should have 5 slots each

      Ok but for real, happy to find that common ground. What would you say to stacking A Carrier with 2 Elite Frigates? Total capacity of 21 with 6 necessarily being helicopters. Still good with that idea?
      The beatings will continue until morale improves!

    • Cpt_Merica wrote:

      Perfect! Then we agree that Tier 3 Elite Frigates should have 5 slots each
      HAhaha :P


      Cpt_Merica wrote:

      What would you say to stacking A Carrier with 2 Elite Frigates? Total capacity of 21 with 6 necessarily being helicopters. Still good with that idea?
      Yeah, makes sense as far as I can see. It seems to me that all carriers in the same battle group would be able to send their air craft out on sorties together.

      I suppose a technical challenge with this could be highlighted by posing "what if one of the carrier ships sinks? which air crafts are lost (obvously if a elite frigate sinks, it's gotta be helicopters but what if the helicopters are equally gunships and attack helicopters)? Is it random? Is which air craft are based off each ship kept behind the scenes? Even if so, how do you determine which ship and it's helicopters sink/crash? If you treat stacked carriers as having a pooled capacity that's not specific to each ship, how do you determine which air crafts crash? How is HP dealt with... Split evenly between the crashed and remaining helicopters? Definitely ways to make this work, but I'd call it a challenge.

    • Firstly, we can't say if elite frigates are useful or useless before we can't stack them.
      I still wait for real helicopter carriers, that can use same numbers of helicopters as aircraft carriers, but cheaper than second one.
      Moreover, I am sure that elite frigates are not frigates at all. They look and are used as helicopter cruisers in 60-90's. So, it will be better to change their models to real helicopter cruisers.
      European doctrine - French helicopter cruiser "Jeanne d'Ark"
      Eastern doctrine - Soviet helicopter cruiser "Moskva-class", project 1123
      Western doctrine - Japanese helicopter destroyer "Haruna-class"
      Files
      Что вы остолбенели?! Живо поднять гарнизон! Ну!

    • Rainmaker2112 wrote:

      Cpt_Merica wrote:

      Perfect! Then we agree that Tier 3 Elite Frigates should have 5 slots each
      HAhaha :P

      Cpt_Merica wrote:

      What would you say to stacking A Carrier with 2 Elite Frigates? Total capacity of 21 with 6 necessarily being helicopters. Still good with that idea?
      Yeah, makes sense as far as I can see. It seems to me that all carriers in the same battle group would be able to send their air craft out on sorties together.
      I suppose a technical challenge with this could be highlighted by posing "what if one of the carrier ships sinks? which air crafts are lost (obvously if a elite frigate sinks, it's gotta be helicopters but what if the helicopters are equally gunships and attack helicopters)? Is it random? Is which air craft are based off each ship kept behind the scenes? Even if so, how do you determine which ship and it's helicopters sink/crash? If you treat stacked carriers as having a pooled capacity that's not specific to each ship, how do you determine which air crafts crash? How is HP dealt with... Split evenly between the crashed and remaining helicopters? Definitely ways to make this work, but I'd call it a challenge.
      I believe that the way the game code currently works is similar to land-based aircraft where it stores their origination point. So with Carriers, we have to wait until we ferry some jets to a new location (and they reach that new location) because, until that point, they are tied to that carrier. When it comes to 2 Elite Frigates both stacked together, and 6 helicopters are landed on them, the game necessarily must associate each helicopter to an Elite Frigate, so when one of them gets destroyed the associated helicopters get destroyed if there's no place to land within a reachable distance. I think it's more a matter of the player not being able to choose which helicopters get associated with which Elite Frigate. Hopefully, that makes sense.
      The beatings will continue until morale improves!