Elite frigate broken op

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    • Single point, multi-stacking is not a reason to call the elite frigate OP for one simple reason... you can do it with any unit land or sea.

      playbabe wrote:

      well do you know they all will received FULL damage when got attack
      I discovered this the hard way the other day - kinda painful.

      Admira G1 wrote:

      This allows multiple stacks to be at the same exact spot in the sea acting as if they were stacked without any penalties
      This is possible without elite frigate... start moving your over-loaded stack, then split it sending the split the same direction. Now select both (all) stacks and send them wherever - they are at the same point but distinct groups.

      Teburu wrote:

      you gain nothing that couldn’t be gained by stationing them a little bit more apart
      except the possability of 1-shoting something that never gets to shoot back.


      Some general thoughs on single point multi-stacking:
      - Moving ships on aggressive stance does not seem to guarantee you get the first shot (I've tested). So, there's a big risk to single point multi-stacks while you are not micro-managing
      - I don't know if an attack move is any better in terms of your chances to get the first shot off - I assume the game has cyclical checks to see if you are in range but I don't have any idea what affects priority of what ship's range and attack would get triggered first (I would expect you could test sorting by country name, perhaps by unit stance - stationary, moving with aggressive stance, or attack move)
      - Finally, I will note, if you can micro manage your ships into a fight and don't mind staring at your screen repeatedly clicking attack move on an enemy radar contact, you can almost certainly get the first hit unless your opponent is doing the same in which case it's luck of the draw I assume.

    • except that possibility does not rely on putting multiple stacks.
      With how unreliable agressive firecontrol is you dont really think they all will actually fire at the same time; as you have said yourself: they aren’t even guranteed to hit first.
      simply having a bit of distance between the ships to avoid the splash dmg would be a lot safer.

      And about killing any unit before it gets to hit? May I introduce you to the elite sub? Completely undetectable unless inside sightrange.
      I am The Baseline for opinions

    • Teburu wrote:

      except that possibility does not rely on putting multiple stacks.
      With how unreliable agressive firecontrol is you dont really think they all will actually fire at the same time; as you have said yourself: they aren’t even guranteed to hit first.
      simply having a bit of distance between the ships to avoid the splash dmg would be a lot safer.
      As I said, "the possability of 1-shotting"

      and, as I said "there's a big risk to single point multi-stacks while you are not micro-managing"


      Teburu wrote:

      May I introduce you to the elite sub?
      Well, maybe so :P I have never, ever seen one.
      Yes, they exist, yes people have them, yes it's an obvious counter to stacked ships - I just don't think it's a good point in this context since it's so rare and does not deal with a general case.

    • Now that the dust settled above (I think) - I have another question.

      When the Elite Frigate "bug" isn't helping someone keep stacks separated, what's the trick to putting more than five ships in one spot without seeing them automatically merge into a more-than-5-ships, over-stacked stack?

      I can't think of any obvious, simple way to get several stacks to be 1) Right on top of each other (What are the necessary/desired max- and min-separations among all the stacks???), and 2) Moving together, and 3) All controlled easily enough to be used looking for or chasing an opponent's ships.

      Do you have to sacrifice a small-mammal or reptile to get the game-gods to make this possible?

      Do you have to be insanely quick with your mouse on a really, really, really zoomed-in view of the map?

      Something else?

    • i was once eating shit landing a stagk onshore. i alread started splitting them
      and giving them looting orders in all directions as suddenly airforce appeared. the stacking penalty is brutal.

      I once saw a guy splitting a stack of 10 units into singles(for whatevwr reason) while atack a stack if 3 cruisers.
      1O ships gone after first round of fire.
      @Dorado If you Close the Forum and move everything to Discord you will lose my Feedback for sure.

    • kurtvonstein wrote:

      i was once eating shit landing a stagk onshore. i alread started splitting them
      and giving them looting orders in all directions as suddenly airforce appeared. the stacking penalty is brutal.

      I once saw a guy splitting a stack of 10 units into singles(for whatevwr reason) while atack a stack if 3 cruisers.
      1O ships gone after first round of fire.
      What you described here is exactly what I did to someone in an alliance battle. He had infantry units everywhere trying to disguise hit artillery stack that had less range than mine but he didn’t know that after I fire and destroy a unit I get the same attack again a min later. What ended up happening I killed 6 infantry and a mobile artillery in one round of fire from 6 mrl.

    • Rainmaker2112, those are good arguments so thank you for actually taking the time to understand and give feedback but there is a difference between elite frigate over stacks and the ways you describe them. The differences are minor but they are important.

      When you separate ships that are moving, first they are not exactly in the same spot and the attacks will be off by the amount of time it takes you to order their separation. It is small time frame and that time can be very minimal that the effect is similar but more dangerous. Let’s say you have 20 ships all on aggressive and you send them to enemy shores and separate them on the way, if they encounter any enemy ships and your first stack begins the fire, by the your 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc stack has the chance to fire you can get return fire that might apply to all of your stacks. So it is actually more dangerous the way you describe it because of that small delay that will allow your opponent to attack you back. Many people here have made the point that any damage received will be applied to all of the ships and if true that’s more risk than elite frigate multi stacks. Do you agree?

      As you’ve mentioned, having aggressive fire control doesn’t guarantee first hit and additionally, you run the risk of attacking nearby infantry near naval ports and get a delay on your ships attacks on naval contacts, a trick that I often use to get the first hit in event of surprise naval attacks. With the elite frigate however, you can have them on any of the fire control settings and manually order the attack by spamming it in order to increase your odds of getting the first hit. This became easier because elite frigates have a sonar and radar of 125. You can select multiple stacks to do this and the attack will launch at the same time. There is that risk when you are not micro managing, of course but over stacking elite frigates is mainly useful for when you are the aggressor. If you play as United States, having all of your ships together is not only risky to your ships but that means you don’t have any ships anywhere else. This is a big disadvantage for the defender because most players generally have ships guarding most naval ports and they all have the chance of getting one shot. While you might not like the term op, you have to admit there is an advantage to it if used actively.

      Teburu’s point about elite subs is valid but I’ve only ever seen it on one map in the 3 years and the 2 accounts that I’ve played on. Elite subs exist but people don’t use them often and that argument is like watching someone play Rock Paper Scissors and then saying I would have used rock when you used scissors and beat you. With that said I do see elite subs as obvious counter to this.

      I have to stress this again, the elite frigate overstack looks like it operates the same way as any other forms of overstack using different way points, targets or with time delay but they don’t behave the same on the battlefield. They are on the exact same coordinates where as other overstack that don’t use elite frigates are slightly off, however small it may be or whether it looks visible or not. The more stacks you are using the bigger that distance grows between the first stack and the last. Running into ships without using elite frigates you have to rely on fire control auto activating where as with elite frigates you can give manual orders to declare war or try to get the first hit.
      If you overstack without elite frigates and manage to get the first hit with your first stack, the returning fire will fireback and the splash damage will even go outside of the attack range, damaging your stacks that could be 1 second from reaching their attack range

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Admira G1 ().

    • KFGauss wrote:

      Now that the dust settled above (I think) - I have another question.

      When the Elite Frigate "bug" isn't helping someone keep stacks separated, what's the trick to putting more than five ships in one spot without seeing them automatically merge into a more-than-5-ships, over-stacked stack?

      I can't think of any obvious, simple way to get several stacks to be 1) Right on top of each other (What are the necessary/desired max- and min-separations among all the stacks???), and 2) Moving together, and 3) All controlled easily enough to be used looking for or chasing an opponent's ships.

      Do you have to sacrifice a small-mammal or reptile to get the game-gods to make this possible?

      Do you have to be insanely quick with your mouse on a really, really, really zoomed-in view of the map?

      Something else?
      the short answer is you can’t, not reliably at least. They will be slightly away from each other. There is only one scenario that I can see where you can keep your ships on the same spot without combining them (talking about stacks that don’t use elite frigate). Suppose you have 20 ships all stacked together, you give them orders to circle Africa (then you separate the stacks into stacks of 5) and have fire control on aggressive. Initially they will be slightly away from each other because overstacked ships will have different speed than stacks of 5 but looks to be on the same coordinates. If they come in range of a land stack, they will engage that land stack. It is at this point where you can say they are all at the exact same coordinates. Once they destroy that stack and continue moving they will continue to be on the same coordinates until their moving orders are complete.

      You can’t control them and have them on the same coordinates. You will have to rely on aggressive auto attack to do the damage. With elite frigate stacks you can do this much easier

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Admira G1: To answer question 3 ().

    • I agree it definitely makes it slightly easier for attacks but I don’t think this feature makes them OP.

      But like I mentioned earlier when sailing with 10, 15 or more you put your stacks on aggressive and sail to different spots on the same path they are only like one second apart from the process and having the stacking penalty from each other. No one is going to be able to tell the difference. Also if you are worried about air or missile attacks anything in like 20(correct me if wrong), will automatically get on the defensive hit spot.

      And if I am worried about a player having a big navy I am not going to deploy my navy even if I have 20 ships at him it is not worth it if I am not online.

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Marcellus ().

    • Well as others mentioned, being one second apart is dangerous to you because of splash damage. OP is a matter of opinion. I just wanted to make the point about the game mechanic that is possible right now with the elite frigate which eventually the developers claim they will fix but it will still be possible with aircraft carriers. I’m not sure if the stacking of elite frigates will be applied to aircraft carriers or if they are already stackable. As far as I can remember aircraft carriers can not stack with other aircraft carriers.

      I think if people try it out in a game them self they will fully understand what I was trying to say and how easy it is to one shot naval stacks

    • Marcellus wrote:

      . . . when you put your stacks on aggressive and sail to different spots on the same path they are only one second apart from each other . . .
      This isn't obvious to some of us. Please explain.

      You simply wrote "stacks", so I'm assuming that you mean stacks of any ships, not stacks that each have one Elite Frigate.

      I'm assuming that the several ships (more than 5) that become the attacking stacks start in the same place in a single stack.

      I'm assuming that the attacker sends groups of ships extracted from that initial stack toward slightly different destinations one a single path that all the attacking ships follow.

      What causes the ships to be separated by (or to encounter their opponent at times separated by) only 1 second?

      I would think that the several attacking stacks extracted from the original attacker stack would be separated by several seconds, because it would take several seconds of mouse-pointing and mouse-clicking to split each attacking group/stack out of the original stack and send it on its way to its unique destination.

      With that in mind I would think that those several stacks would reach their target, still separated by several seconds.

    • Admira G1 wrote:

      Well as others mentioned, being one second apart is dangerous to you because of splash damage. OP is a matter of opinion. I just wanted to make the point about the game mechanic that is possible right now with the elite frigate which eventually the developers claim they will fix but it will still be possible with aircraft carriers. I’m not sure if the stacking of elite frigates will be applied to aircraft carriers or if they are already stackable. As far as I can remember aircraft carriers can not stack with other aircraft carriers.

      I think if people try it out in a game them self they will fully understand what I was trying to say and how easy it is to one shot naval stacks
      As of right now carriers are not able to stack either so it will get fixed at some point. Same thing with the elite frigate. I am almost certain

    • KFGauss wrote:

      I'm assuming that the several ships (more than 5) that become the attacking stacks start in the same place in a single stack.

      What causes the ships to be separated by (or to encounter their opponent at times separated by) only 1 second?

      I would think that the several attacking stacks extracted from the original attacker stack would be separated by several seconds, because it would take several seconds of mouse-pointing and mouse-clicking to split each attacking group/stack out of the original stack and send it on its way to its unique destination.

      With that in mind I would think that those several stacks would reach their target, still separated by several seconds.
      1. Yes more than one full stack

      2 and 3. Because of the penalty for a second would cause them to be separated

      4. Idk that depends how fast you are on mobile it pretty quick :D

    • Marcellus wrote:

      KFGauss wrote:

      I'm assuming that the several ships (more than 5) that become the attacking stacks start in the same place in a single stack.

      What causes the ships to be separated by (or to encounter their opponent at times separated by) only 1 second?

      I would think that the several attacking stacks extracted from the original attacker stack would be separated by several seconds, because it would take several seconds of mouse-pointing and mouse-clicking to split each attacking group/stack out of the original stack and send it on its way to its unique destination.

      With that in mind I would think that those several stacks would reach their target, still separated by several seconds.
      1. Yes more than one full stack
      2 and 3. Because of the penalty for a second would cause them to be separated

      4. Idk that depends how fast you are on mobile it pretty quick :D
      OK - I think I puzzled it out.

      What's been left unsaid is that you start the original (over-stacked) stack toward the destination you want all of the soon-to-be-created new attacking stacks to go to, and that original stack begins moving slowly (because it is over-stacked) toward that destination.

      As you remove ships from the original stack to create new (not-over-stacked) stacks from the original, the new stacks begin moving faster than the (penalized because it is over-stacked) original stack.

      Because the new stack(s) is moving faster than the penalized, over-stacked original, it moves a second or two's worth of distance ahead of the original, still-penalized stack (and the new stack will also be a second or two behind any non-penalized stacks that were extracted from the original stack before this one was extracted).

      Thanks

    • Yeah bud you will take full damage to every stack of ships grouping them like this. Even people who hit and run with multiple stacks keep them spread out to avoid getting splash damaged like you 100% will grouping your ships like this.

      1. Bad idea to set up ships in a way that makes them easily splashed.

      2. “If you get the first shot” is pretty pointless to bring up. If they get the first shot you’re going to lose 5+ ships. If you get it with the 20 ships listed they’ll have similar losses.

      3. You will get trashed by a strong naval player who can hit and run well stacking slow ass frigates with cruisers. It’s really not that hard to completely avoid someone returning fire on your ships even if they have the same range as you and with lower speed than them if doesn’t matter if you’re online too. You won’t catch them at frigates speed.

      4. Naval officer+cruisers will absolutely wipe all twenty boats in record time if you do this against the wrong player. Even a solo naval officer (or elite subs lvl 2+ in shallows) at lvl 4 could kill all 20 ships without getting hit once.

      5. You can accomplish basically the same exact thing without all the obvious risks and downsides keeping your ships spaced a couple minutes travel time apart from each other.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Jim Lake ().

    • Admira G1 wrote:

      Marcellus wrote:

      What you have described admira is what I do normally in naval fighting even without the elite frigates non stacking ability.

      If you have fire control settings and want to sail in the same spot with 2 or more stacks it easy to do without elite frigates. All you have to do is way point your ships and have the end destination target slightly different and as long as you have the same ships in each stack you do the same thing as you described lots of ships in the same spot while not receiving penalties.

      And if you want to defeat my navy you will need to have a lot of ships or spread me out and hit multiple locations.

      Hope this is understandable to you
      I know and that is harder to manage. You can even be idle in the water and “overstack” without penalty without using elite frigates temporarily.All you have to do is stack all your ships and order some out of the formation and immediately put a time delay. It acts as the same. With the elite frigate it becomes too easy and it’s practically impossible for the other person-to get a hit in unless you’re the first person to attack. So you have 1 second to get a hit or instantly lose your stack.

      If you’re getting attacked with this kind of overstack, and your other stacks are even slightly out of range of attack, the person with the elite frigates over stacks can simply move back after the first hit (once your first stack is gone) and wait the 1 hour for the next turn to attack and then you’re in the same spot as before except one less stack to use. If you chase them, the other person can move all the ships at the same time, rush them away and if you manage to catch up to them after the 1 hour turn they can just attack you again and down your next stack.

      As for way pointing to different spots yes they work if you have fire control set to aggressive but if you don’t kill the stack immediately your ships are temporarily stuck there( also important to know if you way point them towards the enemy ships and your ships are even slightly behind one an other, your leading stack can get hit and the enemy can move back before you can get a hit in) and other stacks can get a hit in until you change the fire control settings. Now you can do this with fire control setting on hold fire and hit and run becomes extremely easy

      the point is getting the first hit is now extremely crucial. It was important before but before, making couple of mistakes and missing the first hit was recoverable. If you have 4 stacks and you miss the first hit even twice, your navy is now halved, 3 times you lose the game. Before missing the first hit 3 times meant either you lose 1 good stack or 3 of your stacks are damaged
      I imagine radar will only show it as 1 stack as well


      You aren’t going to simply move out of range against an active naval player whose stacks don’t have frigates in with cruisers. You will get chased down because frigates are slow.