MattBooth25 wrote:
I hate the MBT, my argument is that the tank destroyer paired with airborne infrantry is better than what most people use which is artillery. Paired with SAMs to deal with air, that is only 3 things I need to research.
Armored hate
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im confused aswell. I was in defense of armor. but as an offense and only tank destroyers.
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MattBooth25 wrote:
im confused aswell. I was in defense of armor. but as an offense and only tank destroyers.
When those troops are airborne they are very vulnerable to an active opponent. In most public matches you should do very with your strategy, as most players are not experienced or active enough to counter you. But a talented artillery player will definitely have plenty of AA defense near his artillery…it would be a painful landing.
Ultimately in all forms of melee you end up trading losses with an opponent, ranged combat delivers free damage.I am Aeneas, duty-bound and known above high air of heaven by my fame, carrying with me in my ships our gods of hearth and home, saved from the foe. I look for Italy to be my fatherland, and my descent is from all-highest Jove. -
i wouldn't say free damage...but certainly controlled and somewhat easily managed, at least from a air force perspective. True you are talking artillery so yes free sorry
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MattBooth25 wrote:
my argument is that the tank destroyer paired with airborne infrantry is better than what most people use which is artillery
Commander Zozo001
humble player -
Aeneas of Troy wrote:
But a talented artillery player will definitely have plenty of AA defense near his artillery
Commander Zozo001
humble player -
phoule wrote:
i wouldn't say free damage...but certainly controlled and somewhat easily managed, at least from a air force perspective. True you are talking artillery so yes free sorry
Commander Zozo001
humble player -
KFGauss wrote:
[re OOB] ... progress during some games?
From these numbers alone, it is clear to me that the ranged attack side is bound to obliterate the TD force.Commander Zozo001
humble player -
even with the increased building cost to build these units?
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MattBooth25 wrote:
even with the increased building cost to build these units?
Commander Zozo001
humble player -
tank destroyers being able to be made with lvl 2 army bases and the rocket launchers require level 4. it takes 2.2k supplies to make a rocket launcher maxxed, and 1.7k components to make a maxxed tank destroyter. edit: it also takes slightly more electronics to make rocket launchers than tank destroyers. yes, rocket support players can build airforces but where is the extra supplies coming from to build a proper anti air defense to my airborne infrantry when i can use all my supplies to produce anti air and sams. i think people are overestimating the power of rocket launchers range and being able to produce a large airforce, and underestimating the strength of being able to invest heavily in sams and being able to air assault close or on top of rocket launchers.
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@MattB - As I strongly implied earlier, ironclad support for your position would come from records showing that you could out-produce and out-research opponents (keeping your production minus losses ahead of theirs) who were otherwise on equal footing with you.
Can you bring that? Now or soon? -
Don't follow the zaverielopa link folks.
It's that knolldoll crap again -
MattBooth25 wrote:
underestimating [...] being able to air assault [...] on top of rocket launchers
Commander Zozo001
humble player -
MattBooth25 wrote:
it takes 2.2k supplies to make a rocket launcher maxxed, and 1.7k components to make a maxxed tank destroyer
With the standard base productions, 2100/day supplies and 1800/day components, they yield 0.93 MRL5 and 1.06 TD7 per day, resp. These correspond to 37.1 HP for the latter, against a hard ATK 6.5 for the former. (See my updated spreadsheet for all the gory details.) That is: all the TDs produced can be wiped out by a mere 6 hits from the arties, which are made during the same time.
Needless to say, the ranged attacker will receive zero damage in this fighting.Commander Zozo001
humble playerThe post was edited 5 times, last by Zozo001 ().
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I dont think a "standard base prodution" is a good way to compare units. Because that way you are attributing each resource some value, and the value you are attributing is exactly how much you are producing (or rather the ratio of production between resources). And then you are translating that value into unit output. There are 2 main flaws:
1. Not all resources go towards unit production. Supplies (and rares) need to be spent on research, which means you have less supplies available for unit production than you think. In other words, you aren't producing 0.93 MRL5 per day, rather less. Same principles applies for buildings, constructing buildings means you have less resources available making some resources more sacre than others.
2. The resource "weight" a production carries also depends on your overall build. If apart from your MRL you are also building SAMs, TDS, MAA, Infantries (lots of supply consuming units), those supplies are becoming rare and important. The fact that MRL cost XY amount of supplies is going to weight much more heavily than if your build is short on components. In that case you have plenty of supplies leftover and don't really care about the supplies cost of MRL too much.
Furthermore this argument lacks context and relation to reality. How is it important how many hits a TD can survive from a MRL if the purpose of the TD is to air assault the MRL and not eat MRL shots for nothing? And I think thats a great idea, if the opponent sleeps for ~20mins you can get TD air assaulted on the enemy MRL. You can even air assault behind the MRL to cut off the escape route. Its great! And I think we can all agree that once the TD lock the MRL into melee its a clear case of TD shredding their victims.
The main issue is how reliable it is. Not many players are looking permanently into their game to intercept air assaulting units or to move their artillery stacks back. It requires A LOT of activity to catch such an air assault, and don't forget you need some time too after discovering it to either send in ASF or enough time for your MRL to pull back. Odds aren't looking too bad and I certainly fathom MattBooth25 to have success with his air assault strategy vs artillery. Might not work against the best and most active players, but I doubt he faces them all the time. -
Mc_Johnsen wrote:
[...] you aren't producing 0.93 MRL5 per day, rather less[...].
Yes, realistically less MRLs would be produced, as a lot of resources would be needed for other things. But the very same applies to the other side, which would not produce TDs from all available resources, either. And here is another thing: even if TDs were produced to the max, their numbers would not be enough to overwhelm a skilled opponent. The ranged attackers would wipe them out eventually, if not in 6 shots then in 12 or a bit more.
Despite what you are suggesting, it is not practically possible to air assault on moving arty. So your supposed fighting mode is pure fantasy. The devastating arty fire is very real, however.
Mc_Johnsen wrote:
we can all agree that once the TD lock the MRL into melee [...]
Keep in mind that much, if not all, of this perceived fighting happens upon the assaulter flying blindly into enemy airspace (which is firmly controlled by the arty player in all likelihood).Commander Zozo001
humble playerThe post was edited 2 times, last by Zozo001 ().
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MattBooth25 wrote:
No true veteran will tell you armor is worthless. This is a rock paper scissors game of skill and luck. Don’t listen to the people saying “if you make MBT, you’re my next victim” these people don’t understand the ways of this game. That MBT player may have a coalition focusing other aspects of military. MBT is the absolute best armor unit you can make in a coalition where you are the armorer. My point is if you make strikers. Someone is going to have SAMs, and ASF. If you make ground someone is going to have strikers. If you make SAMs and ASF someone will have ground. Make a navy someone has subs or navy patrols, make subs everyone has cruisers and destroyers. Play your way, but range units are probably superior in most cases.
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@Zozo001 You are conveniently ignoring what I said.
"Might not work against the best and most active players, but I doubt he[MattBooth] faces them all the time."
I am not saying this is a foolproof strategy against the best players, I am saying this is a viable strategy which likely works most of the time for them. Hint: Most players on the world map aren't checking their game constantly nor are they the best players.
I never said I am assaulting moving artillery, which btw is also incredibly easy. Tier 1 air assault helicopters have a speed of 3. Your tier 1 MRLs have at best a speed of 1. Significantly worse on worse terrain or hostile territory. Good luck running away from me when I am flying several times faster than you I will just wait till you aren't in your friendly flatlands/desert and pounce. And at some point you are surely going to have to send your artillery into hostile territory to shoot? Especially if the province is large. At that point, is the airspace really hostile?
I can also make that airspace hostile for my opponent with my own anti air and ASF.
The main weakness is enemy ASF, and those require high acivity from the opponent to use, which I explicitly ruled out for my scenario. Of course its not gonna work out if the opponent is active with ASF nearby, duh. Btw, even the best and most active players have to go to sleep at some point.
It still hardly matters how many hits TDs can tank, nor do I need overwhelming numbers.
About your resource game, its still wrong. You cannot compare different resources. Very simple example: both players require to build a certain amount of SAMs. This means both players have less supplies at their disposal. Thus the artillery player has less supplies for MRL production. The tank player however still has full components available for his TD production. Neither TD nor MRL have egregious costs and thats all that matters. -
While Airassaulting would most certainly work against Artillery; that seems like a way to elaborate strategy to pursue considering the extreme lack of people with the braincells necessary to build Arty in the first place.
If Airassault would work; then so would regular helis imo.I am The Baseline for opinions
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