Argument I'm Having: Merged Strikers vs Separate Strikers?

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    • Argument I'm Having: Merged Strikers vs Separate Strikers?

      I am currently having an argument with one of my friends. We are currently playing in a game and I noticed that he is attacking an enemy unit with 2 strike fighters that are separate. I told him it was better to merge the 2 strike fighters together instead of separating but he disagreed.

      How the argument went:
      Me: Merging the strike fighters make them do more damage and take less damage. The enemy does the same amount of defensive damage each attack. If you attack with them separate, you are receiving 2x the damage
      Friend: I do it so I can bomb for longer without losing any of my planes - then I send them back to hospital. When attacking other aircraft I combine my planes
      Me: How does that make sense? If you combine them, you take less damage. But still do the same damage to the enemy.
      Friend: But if you combine them it’s like a fraction of them die instead of just loosing equal heath at the same rate. If you bomb with a stack- some of them die.
      Me: They are losing two times the rate. You can separate them again if you see ones about to die.
      Friend: When bombing only, I find it easier to keep my planes alive when I have them separate.

      Which one of us is right? Can you go deep into why? I'm trying to convince them. If I'm wrong I need to be convinced.

      Thanks!

    • Your friend is mostly wrong - He is trying to solve a legitimate "problem", but his method is perhaps the worst method.

      There are threads in the Forum that explain the trade-off involved well.

      If you use google to do some site-specific searching, and if you try various search terms, you should be able to find one of those previous answers.

      google site:forum.conflictnations.com . . .

      In addition, there are other ways to avoid losing planes because of Low HP.

      Primarily, you continuously heal them by putting them into a Hospital as often as you can - You never want to use them until they die (sometimes you have to) - Obviously, build more planes and a good hospital before attacking a tough-to-kill target if you are able

      Researching, building, and then sending more than one type of plane in your mission stack(s) is a way to prevent losses. Many players call the effect of distributing damage across different unit types "damage distribution".

      These options require time and other resources. If you choose to start fighting before making those investments, you are generally making a mistake.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by KFGauss ().

    • KFGauss wrote:

      Many players call doing that, "damage distribution".
      "Mitigation" is the term of art for exploiting the damage distribution feature.

      Back to the title question: you answer is correct ofc. There are (rare) cases when separating the planes make sense: when the defensive damage would kill one of the stacked units, but the attack is still necessary. Then attacking with single units they will still survive (although adsorbing more damage cumulatively).

      Like you said about the preparation, getting into situations like this indicates that the whole setup is wrongheaded. Still, salvaging a valuable city or some endangered defenders may be worth doing this suboptimal attack at times.
      Commander Zozo001 :thumbsup:
      humble player

    • While KFG and Zozo are right, considering that the guy would take double the defense damage by attacking separated, i'd argue that the initial point, "survive longer" is voided.

      He's right that if merged, he would lose the first strike fighter earlier
      but separated, he would lose both at the same time (in terms of total flight time), as well as dealing less damage output quicker, due to individual HP reduction.



      Basically, your friend has identified a real mechanism (mitigation as said zozo) but understood it poorly so far.


      He should separate planes... but only when the damage treshold makes the whole group close to the first loss. And even then, such "separation" should occur not to continue bombing (which would be in many cases a desperate measure), but a evasive tactic to not get anyone killed, while you get them back to hospital for healing.
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.

    • Thanks y'all so much for replying! I learned a lot of new stuff myself when looking up "mitigation" on this forum. I have never really looked that deep into this mechanism. My friend and I had a very good argument and he is cautiously accepting the idea of not sending them separately until reaching the damage threshold.

      He told me that he is having a very hard time wrapping his head around this. I'm assuming here since he didn't specify what was hard to understand but I think he meant he didn't understand the fact that he will take more damage when he attacks a unit when separated (I believe I have already given him a very thorough explanation of defense damage and it is up to him to understand it).

      However, he does come up with two good points.
      1. "I disagree anyway - it that ok - bc You never want to use them until they die - is exactly my reasoning. And you cant always be watching them and return to hospital just before they die - however now that I know its superior to stack - I will use this when I am active an can watch my aircraft strikes"
      2. "If you choose to start fighting before making those investments, you are generally making a mistake - its early game and I am able to use them separated without fear of them dying - so I think its the correct approach especially in early game with low level planes"

      His main concern is basically this: "Im taking note but Ill have to try it out bc Im not convinced it would save my aircraft from dying everytime and it wouldnt let me bomb for long - but I can see the benefit"

      I have given him a bunch of information from multiple threads on this forum. I think it is just up to him to figure it out. Thanks y'all!

    • Ronny76 wrote:

      Thanks y'all so much for replying! I learned a lot of new stuff myself when looking up "mitigation" on this forum. I have never really looked that deep into this mechanism. My friend and I had a very good argument and he is cautiously accepting the idea of not sending them separately until reaching the damage threshold.

      He told me that he is having a very hard time wrapping his head around this. I'm assuming here since he didn't specify what was hard to understand but I think he meant he didn't understand the fact that he will take more damage when he attacks a unit when separated (I believe I have already given him a very thorough explanation of defense damage and it is up to him to understand it).

      However, he does come up with two good points.
      1. "I disagree anyway - it that ok - bc You never want to use them until they die - is exactly my reasoning. And you cant always be watching them and return to hospital just before they die - however now that I know its superior to stack - I will use this when I am active an can watch my aircraft strikes"
      2. "If you choose to start fighting before making those investments, you are generally making a mistake - its early game and I am able to use them separated without fear of them dying - so I think its the correct approach especially in early game with low level planes"

      His main concern is basically this: "Im taking note but Ill have to try it out bc Im not convinced it would save my aircraft from dying everytime and it wouldnt let me bomb for long - but I can see the benefit"

      I have given him a bunch of information from multiple threads on this forum. I think it is just up to him to figure it out. Thanks y'all!
      If I understand what he is saying, just ask your buddy to use pencil and paper to add up the damage he will receive, the damage he will deliver, and the time it will take in each of these scenarios.
      • Two targets. Each is 1 Mot Inf. 15 minutes away from your air base.
      • Scenario One - Send one plane to each target twice.
      • Scenario Two - Send a two-plane stack to one target, then send the same two-plane stack to the other target.
      I think he'll like Scenario Two's bottom line better he'll like Scenario One's bottom line.

      It Scenario One looks better, come back here to show us the calculations so that we can make sure the calculations are correct.

    • Ronny76 wrote:

      Thanks y'all so much for replying! I learned a lot of new stuff myself when looking up "mitigation" on this forum. I have never really looked that deep into this mechanism. My friend and I had a very good argument and he is cautiously accepting the idea of not sending them separately until reaching the damage threshold.

      He told me that he is having a very hard time wrapping his head around this. I'm assuming here since he didn't specify what was hard to understand but I think he meant he didn't understand the fact that he will take more damage when he attacks a unit when separated (I believe I have already given him a very thorough explanation of defense damage and it is up to him to understand it).

      However, he does come up with two good points.
      1. "I disagree anyway - it that ok - bc You never want to use them until they die - is exactly my reasoning. And you cant always be watching them and return to hospital just before they die - however now that I know its superior to stack - I will use this when I am active an can watch my aircraft strikes"
      2. "If you choose to start fighting before making those investments, you are generally making a mistake - its early game and I am able to use them separated without fear of them dying - so I think its the correct approach especially in early game with low level planes"

      His main concern is basically this: "Im taking note but Ill have to try it out bc Im not convinced it would save my aircraft from dying everytime and it wouldnt let me bomb for long - but I can see the benefit"

      I have given him a bunch of information from multiple threads on this forum. I think it is just up to him to figure it out. Thanks y'all!
      If he is that concerned about keeping them alive then he should actually use mixed stacks.
      And using them seperate still means you take a lot more dmg than you’d otherwise.
      I am The Baseline for opinions

    • Yes, the "longer alive if separated" is flawed and a twisted understanding of the actual reason we separate units.
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.