SAMs, dont like helios?

    This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

    • SAMs, dont like helios?

      Hey guys, yep its me again, was destroyers last time, and air borne infantry the time before, and now its SAMs and TDS

      While playing around with my new TDS, which I frickin love haha. Such a cool unit, It appears....



      Mobile SAMs and Theater Defense Systems appear to be suffering from Corcoranophobia.
      Mobile SAMs and TDS have no stats against helicopters, which I find remarkably strange and presume and really hope its a mistake. In reality Patriot missile systems can definitelyengage Helis, and even drones. Here is an Israeli report on their Patriots. ( idfblog.com/2014/11/17/patriot…ense-enemy-infiltrations/ )


      As for the Mobile SAMs, well the likes of the avenger missile system, were designed to attack low flying fixed wing aircraft and helicopters.... Even in the description of the unit, it says and I quote " Detects airplanes and helicopters with its radar and engages them accordingly "

      ?( ;( :P
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu
    • thats why you pair them with mobile AA. Its like this: Mobile aa kills copters, planes kill mobile AA, Copters kill sams, sams kill planes. Though I think theater def should have a little. but not sam, game wise that is, so both mobile AA and sams have their specific role, where tehater defence would be mostly planes and missiles (in reality its sort of like this too, though sam can get about anything, and mobile aa actually has missiles on most of the newer models too, though very short range, though sams irl are not really for copters as copters usually fly to low for them)

      thats my view/opinion, idk of that is the original intent of the designers
      - Give me a lever long enough, and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world -
    • IshXIII wrote:

      thats why you pair them with mobile AA. Its like this: Mobile aa kills copters, planes kill mobile AA, Copters kill sams, sams kill planes. Though I think theater def should have a little. but not sam, game wise that is, so both mobile AA and sams have their specific role, where tehater defence would be mostly planes and missiles (in reality its sort of like this too, though sam can get about anything, and mobile aa actually has missiles on most of the newer models too, though very short range, though sams irl are not really for copters as copters usually fly to low for them)

      thats my view/opinion, idk of that is the original intent of the designers
      *Facepalm" You know mobile AA protects stacks, not airspace... Meaning, helicopters would have a very easy time infiltrating your airspace.

      In reality its not like that at all, Patriot missiles take out drones nevermind helicopters....


      And, Crotales can take out AS missiles as far as I remember. Mobile AA in this game, is like heavy machine guns etc, used for light AA, they are not missile of any kind being carried


      even in the flippin description it says you wrong
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu
    • Sorry Oceanhawk,

      but if you say that "helicopters would have a very easy time infiltrating your airspace and In reality its not like that at all" I must correct you.
      Read up on the opening of the First Gulf War or see reports such as this one: APACHE RADAR RAID

      Now this being said we have no real mechanic to allow for true tactical NOE (Nap of Earth) helicopter attack runs - thus this workaround.
      I also would like to point out that our helos are not stealthy - so they will positively show up on Radar and can be targeted by Fighters.

      //Germanico
      "Going to war without France is like going hunting without an accordion." Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf
    • Germanico wrote:

      Sorry Oceanhawk,

      but if you say that "helicopters would have a very easy time infiltrating your airspace and In reality its not like that at all" I must correct you.
      Read up on the opening of the First Gulf War or see reports such as this one: APACHE RADAR RAID

      Now this being said we have no real mechanic to allow for true tactical NOE (Nap of Earth) helicopter attack runs - thus this workaround.
      I also would like to point out that our helos are not stealthy - so they will positively show up on Radar and can be targeted by Fighters.

      //Germanico
      Hehe, I meant that in the game the helicopters would have a very easy time inflitrating your airspace, as SAMs and TDS dont target helis, only mobile AA which will protect a stack rather than airspace...



      So my point is, that your description says mobile SAM target helis, they dont. The unit types, Avenger for example, are designed for low flying fixed wing aircaft and helis


      However the advantage I find of Mobile SAMs and TDS is they can protect my strategic targets when Im offline, means I dont consistently have to be online with my fighters selected
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu
    • It would give the impression they target Helis, because they are flippin avengers....

      These things are made to attack helicopters, by making them unrealistic and making them unable to hit helicopters, which is just plane (hehe the pun) humours to anyone with a limited knowledge of these!


      and even for an ingame purpose, its pretty silly. I could understand partially, making TDS not able to target Helis, which is extremely unrealistic but could possibly justify it for the purpose of balancing. But by making a unit designed to hunt helis, not able to hunt helis is unrealistic, and silly in game. Helis now can go deep into ones airspace and have no threats, they wont target a few stacks that have mobile AA, but certainly can do a lot of damage without any threats from SAMs

      boeing.com/history/products/avenger-missile-launcher.page





      I dont understand why you would add mobile SAM systems in the first place, if you wont let them do what they are meant to do?
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu
    • Here is actually a better clip





      and a militaryfactor link militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=79
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu
    • DxC wrote:

      Oceanhawk wrote:

      Helis now can go deep into ones airspace and have no threats
      I think they are very vulnerable as is. They don't have anti air defense and about everything else can hit them. Letting SAMs/theater also hit them would make them even more useless.
      Everything can hit them? Mobile SAMs are a unit designed to destroy helicopters. By that logic, should we make frigates not able to hit Aircraft and missiles? Sure yea they are designed as the AA role, but that doesnt matter


      They are vulnerable to fighter aircraft, but that how the story goes, they have their strong point and weak points. I think once they are added to destroyers capable, I think they will be more useful in some ways,


      But the point here, is by letting mobile AA, a unit which has a main purpose as an anti helio, not have anti heli abilities is uber silly
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu
    • Germanico wrote:

      For the time we are not changing the system.

      //Germanico

      Why may I ask? I know Im being a bit of a pain on this, and Im sorry, Is it cos of game developing or balancing?

      Just feel its a real let down, and unrealistic tbh, a unit designed to kill helis, isnt able too
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu
    • Being a military history and wargaming buff myself I feel your pain Oceanhawk. But there are limits to our system that just are what they are. At least for the time being.
      Initially helos could be targeted by SAM and TAD and nobody was using them as they really didn't fulfill any role.
      Presently we are pushing the limits of the game system while we are developing new mechanics - and that means for the time being we are stuck with what we have.

      In reality attack helicopters can accurately pinpoint and destroy tank columns and such - but our game system doesn't allow for this.
      So allowing them to be targeted by SAMs leads to a situation where they are slow strikes with high vulnerability. And where is the fun in that?

      Reason I opted for this solution was also that I like the attack helis ability to really pop up surprisingly.

      Here is a quote on this topic from the net written by someone in the know - although he is referring to MANPADS but it still holds some truth:

      Q: Why hasn't technology like SAM launchers deemed Assault Helicopters useless:

      A: "SAM (Surface-to-Air-Missile), by most laymen's terms/understanding is referring to a guided rocket- either manually through a CLU (Command and Launch Unit), used most commonly on Javelin systems, or automatic via infra-red "heat-seeking". These systems are intended to hit fast air-craft at a altitude of >1000 feet, and generally take a minute or two to setup from a mobile/carrying configuration.
      Most frequently helicopters providing CAS (Close Air Support) are flying very low and fast, something called "Nap of the Earth." The amount of time from recognition of the air threat to aiming/launching a guided SAM at the helicopter is so slow that the likelihood of missing with a (very) expensive rocket is fairly high. RPGs (Rocket Propelled Grenades and other "dumb" rocket munitions) are relatively cheap, fast to aim and fire when not configured for firing, and are optimal at shorter ranges.
      Why are they safe at these low altitudes? Because of speed and terrain. Believe it or not, when a helicopter is flying at nap of the Earth you will not hear it until seconds before it is on top of you. Utilizing hills and valleys, the loud sound of the rotors can be contained and it allows for stealthy approaches if the pilot uses the terrain to their advantage. From my own experience, it's taken Taliban forces about 15 seconds to a minute to react to our birds with some kind of return-fire. In a fire-fight this is an obscenely long amount of time- Enough for an apache or fast-mover to perform a run and get out of the "X" for another run at a different angle.
      "Going to war without France is like going hunting without an accordion." Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf
    • @Germanico, is it a bug that SAMs, anti air regiments and frigates loose hitpoints if they shot to aircrafts?

      In 1 of my games I had 2 anti air regiments, 1 SAM and a frigate. They all shot to a fighter wing from different positions and all anti air units loose hitpoints
      „Morgen, ihr Luschen!“ --- „Morgen, Chef!“ (Ausbilder Schmidt alias Holger Müller bei der Arbeit)
    • Germanico wrote:

      Being a military history and wargaming buff myself I feel your pain Oceanhawk. But there are limits to our system that just are what they are. At least for the time being.
      Initially helos could be targeted by SAM and TAD and nobody was using them as they really didn't fulfill any role.
      Presently we are pushing the limits of the game system while we are developing new mechanics - and that means for the time being we are stuck with what we have.

      In reality attack helicopters can accurately pinpoint and destroy tank columns and such - but our game system doesn't allow for this.
      So allowing them to be targeted by SAMs leads to a situation where they are slow strikes with high vulnerability. And where is the fun in that?

      Reason I opted for this solution was also that I like the attack helis ability to really pop up surprisingly.

      Here is a quote on this topic from the net written by someone in the know - although he is referring to MANPADS but it still holds some truth:

      Q: Why hasn't technology like SAM launchers deemed Assault Helicopters useless:

      A: "SAM (Surface-to-Air-Missile), by most laymen's terms/understanding is referring to a guided rocket- either manually through a CLU (Command and Launch Unit), used most commonly on Javelin systems, or automatic via infra-red "heat-seeking". These systems are intended to hit fast air-craft at a altitude of >1000 feet, and generally take a minute or two to setup from a mobile/carrying configuration.
      Most frequently helicopters providing CAS (Close Air Support) are flying very low and fast, something called "Nap of the Earth." The amount of time from recognition of the air threat to aiming/launching a guided SAM at the helicopter is so slow that the likelihood of missing with a (very) expensive rocket is fairly high. RPGs (Rocket Propelled Grenades and other "dumb" rocket munitions) are relatively cheap, fast to aim and fire when not configured for firing, and are optimal at shorter ranges.
      Why are they safe at these low altitudes? Because of speed and terrain. Believe it or not, when a helicopter is flying at nap of the Earth you will not hear it until seconds before it is on top of you. Utilizing hills and valleys, the loud sound of the rotors can be contained and it allows for stealthy approaches if the pilot uses the terrain to their advantage. From my own experience, it's taken Taliban forces about 15 seconds to a minute to react to our birds with some kind of return-fire. In a fire-fight this is an obscenely long amount of time- Enough for an apache or fast-mover to perform a run and get out of the "X" for another run at a different angle.
      Im a little confused at the top, at first you say they were being done correctly, and then just under you say you are pushing the game limits, mechanically and we are stuck until you develop new mechanics?

      In the game, attack helis are already pretty lethal against tanks, but I think helis need a buff or maybe some added features, to make them more attractive, however making them immune to mobile SAMs and TDS I think is not the right path.


      And RPGs as it says are "dumb" they wont deem gunships useless, but mobile SAMs do pose a threat, even make the range of the mobile SAMs smaller would make sense then, and balance things better I think.
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu
    • making the range of mobile sams smaller would make them useless. if you make sams hit copters then just give them a low attack vs copters.
      The only thing what I think is very bad about copters is their slow speed. but that gets compensated by bigger patrol area, though using them to attack directly is very inefficient.patrolling however is very efficient. I have not had sams or frigates losing hp shooting at anything unless they where in range of a plane/copters patrol area.
      - Give me a lever long enough, and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world -
    • IshXIII wrote:

      making the range of mobile sams smaller would make them useless. if you make sams hit copters then just give them a low attack vs copters.
      The only thing what I think is very bad about copters is their slow speed. but that gets compensated by bigger patrol area, though using them to attack directly is very inefficient.patrolling however is very efficient. I have not had sams or frigates losing hp shooting at anything unless they where in range of a plane/copters patrol area.
      Just needs to hit the copters, I do think that the patrol area of the helis is one of their main advantages, but they are too slow I do agree, by the time they relase their payload and head home, I could have had strike fighters do 3 or 4 times the amount of runs!


      I dont understand your last sentance?





      But my point here, is Mobile SAMs do need to be able to hit helicopters, maybe not TDS, but most certainly Mobile SAMs, Id even remove some of the missile attack strength of the mobile SAM and add it to the helicopters
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu
    • Oceanhawk wrote:


      But my point here, is Mobile SAMs do need to be able to hit helicopters, maybe not TDS, but most certainly Mobile SAMs, Id even remove some of the missile attack strength of the mobile SAM and add it to the helicopters
      Exactly I totally agree.


      My last sentence was a response to someone else stating that their SAM's and frigates lost hp (hitpoints) when attacking planes and copters, though the copters/planes not been in their own attack range, but where in attack range of those sams and frigates. So technically the sams and frigates should not be losing HP, I stated that this never happened to me, unlike the person stating that he did notice this.
      - Give me a lever long enough, and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world -