Disable airlift for heavy vehicles

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  • Disable airlift for heavy vehicles

    The enabling of airlift capability has, in my opinion, devalued several units and greatly increased the power of other units.

    Let's first look at the MBT unit. I saw other people mass producing them because they were super powerful tanks that could dish out and take in huge amounts of damage. That is what made them good units to use. Used properly they could devastate, but they had one bad thing about them - mobility. As Germanico even said in a forum post, you can't transport MBTs via planes enough for it to make sense for it to be an in-game feature. But now that they can move 7 times as fast across a country and make it so these heavy tanks are both powerful AND mobile. Before, the tank destroyer was a counter unit to major tank offenses. Tank destroyers COULD airlift and heli assault because they're very light tanks (The BMPT Terminator is an IFV by the way, run out of Russian TDs?) but now they're weaker and almost as expensive tank units that can barely hold against tanks and CAN'T hold against infantry.

    Towed artillery are almost entirely useless now, since self propelled and rocket artillery can both be airlifted - removing their immobility that kept them from jumping border to border quickly. If you enjoy killing civilians enough to use artillery, there's no longer any point to keeping around towed artillery besides its price - which doesn't really amount to any big advantage considering their lack of HP.

    I'm not sure what to think of theater defense systems. They're long range anti-ballistic ballistic weapons, but now if the enemy fires an unupgraded cruise missile the defense system can run away from the missile if they're by an airbase. I don't think that's how it's supposed to work, but I guess that makes their purpose pop out more? But what do I know, maybe if you fire a cruise missile at an active player's city every single unit they have there should be able to get across the country before the missile arrives?

    I don't know if you guys wanted ballistic missiles to have short range because they'd be able to avoid armies that came nearby them with ease or not, but the range of the ballistic missile, personally, makes ballistic missiles look far less attractive than they used to be. Expensive warheads like chemical or nuclear are going to be treated with care. Players are going to want to put out as many missiles as possible (in the range of price) on an important city. They're also going to want to do it from safety. That is why there's theater defense systems right? And that's also why there's ballistic missiles, to fire at a distance to an important city like the capital. But when you change the range to the range a third of that to fully upgraded heavy bomber or stealth bomber, it changes things up a bit. Cruise missiles are pretty cost effective when dealing with cities and can get fired from bombers 3 times. So if 3 lvl 3 cruise missile can do more damage than a ballistic missile to a city, can have extra armor carrying it (bomber) and have 2 more chances to get past defenses, why would I fire ballistic missiles at the city? They take more warheads per missile so it'll cost more, with less missiles getting fired you'll have more of a chance to get your missiles shot down by SAMs and Theater defense, they still take awhile to reach the target so anti-missile units can be moved to the missile's target area...



    Come on guys, I know you have a better sense than this. My ally in a game made made half his military MBTs so he could bunker in these SLOW but unstoppable units. Now he's going to tear straight through everyone who doesn't have MBTs.

    If you really wanna keep this, i'd at least recommend increasing tank destroyer damage - since they were never good in the first place. Maybe make these heavy units use slower transport aircraft? The update noted decreased ranges of transport planes but I can transport a unit twice the long length of Europe, but can barely hit the capital of my neighboring country.
  • Very good points there - let us gather some feedback and playtest this before changing.
    What we actually have planned is a new tech allowing reasearch of better transports differentiating more and later in game, or making them depending on airport level...
    "Going to war without France is like going hunting without an accordion." Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Germanico ().

  • Interessting, my suggestion is here a time limited airlift for heavy vehicles. We have by the cruise missles a simular system.

    All the heavy vehicles get an own symbol: the symbol for airlift combined with a watch.
    Then you can 1 heavy vehicle transported with airlift in 12 hours. May be with special research more
    „Morgen, ihr Luschen!“ --- „Morgen, Chef!“ (Ausbilder Schmidt alias Holger Müller bei der Arbeit)
  • ProfessionalF wrote:

    The enabling of airlift capability has, in my opinion, devalued several units and greatly increased the power of other units.

    Let's first look at the MBT unit. I saw other people mass producing them because they were super powerful tanks that could dish out and take in huge amounts of damage. That is what made them good units to use. Used properly they could devastate, but they had one bad thing about them - mobility. As Germanico even said in a forum post, you can't transport MBTs via planes enough for it to make sense for it to be an in-game feature. But now that they can move 7 times as fast across a country and make it so these heavy tanks are both powerful AND mobile. Before, the tank destroyer was a counter unit to major tank offenses. Tank destroyers COULD airlift and heli assault because they're very light tanks (The BMPT Terminator is an IFV by the way, run out of Russian TDs?) but now they're weaker and almost as expensive tank units that can barely hold against tanks and CAN'T hold against infantry.

    Towed artillery are almost entirely useless now, since self propelled and rocket artillery can both be airlifted - removing their immobility that kept them from jumping border to border quickly. If you enjoy killing civilians enough to use artillery, there's no longer any point to keeping around towed artillery besides its price - which doesn't really amount to any big advantage considering their lack of HP.

    I'm not sure what to think of theater defense systems. They're long range anti-ballistic ballistic weapons, but now if the enemy fires an unupgraded cruise missile the defense system can run away from the missile if they're by an airbase. I don't think that's how it's supposed to work, but I guess that makes their purpose pop out more? But what do I know, maybe if you fire a cruise missile at an active player's city every single unit they have there should be able to get across the country before the missile arrives?

    I don't know if you guys wanted ballistic missiles to have short range because they'd be able to avoid armies that came nearby them with ease or not, but the range of the ballistic missile, personally, makes ballistic missiles look far less attractive than they used to be. Expensive warheads like chemical or nuclear are going to be treated with care. Players are going to want to put out as many missiles as possible (in the range of price) on an important city. They're also going to want to do it from safety. That is why there's theater defense systems right? And that's also why there's ballistic missiles, to fire at a distance to an important city like the capital. But when you change the range to the range a third of that to fully upgraded heavy bomber or stealth bomber, it changes things up a bit. Cruise missiles are pretty cost effective when dealing with cities and can get fired from bombers 3 times. So if 3 lvl 3 cruise missile can do more damage than a ballistic missile to a city, can have extra armor carrying it (bomber) and have 2 more chances to get past defenses, why would I fire ballistic missiles at the city? They take more warheads per missile so it'll cost more, with less missiles getting fired you'll have more of a chance to get your missiles shot down by SAMs and Theater defense, they still take awhile to reach the target so anti-missile units can be moved to the missile's target area...



    Come on guys, I know you have a better sense than this. My ally in a game made made half his military MBTs so he could bunker in these SLOW but unstoppable units. Now he's going to tear straight through everyone who doesn't have MBTs.

    If you really wanna keep this, i'd at least recommend increasing tank destroyer damage - since they were never good in the first place. Maybe make these heavy units use slower transport aircraft? The update noted decreased ranges of transport planes but I can transport a unit twice the long length of Europe, but can barely hit the capital of my neighboring country.


    Firstly, onto the tanks. In the USA, the C-5 Galaxy can carry 2 M1 Abrams. The C-17 Globemaster III can carry 1 M1. The Russian AN-124 and AN-22 aircraft can carry Russian tanks similarly above. Military airlift of armor in Russia isn't as common as it is the USA fair enough.
    Tanks I refused to use because of their complete lack of speed, and were just obsolete for me. I was using air borne infantry, with tank destroyers ( with air assault) combined with strike fighters, heavy bombers and AWACS. Tanks were just put aside, they were immobile and couldnt be moved from one theater of operations to another. If I was attacked in the south, I could have troops up and down within a few hours, tanks were taking 2-3 days.

    On the flip side, It just took me almost 4 runs of a pair naval strike fighters to destroy a MBT. All early levels, maybe some work there is needed. Maybe there needs to be balancing for MBTs, however I dont think that the mobility will solve that. I dont think that is the issue.
    What you were descrpibing with tanks just crusing through countires, is happening in Europe battlegrounds, where speed and distance is not an issue, the pure strength is just knocking everything out of the way. I think that TDs need a major buff against tanks

    However you are right about the TDs, they are now useless against tanks. And I have noticed throughout using them, that they are just not worth it, and have stopped using them with my Airborne infantry. And slowly just stopped altogether researching them. I do believe strongly, that tank destroyers badly need work. Their Air assault ability is great, but like... pff why bother with them,





    As for towed artillery, their air assault ability will keep them useful, I think that by making MLRS as well as Mobile Howies will just make them slightly more useful, again like the tanks I wasnt using them, but now will take more of an interest in them. A lot of my points here regarding the tanks and howies immobility is because right now, Im at that stage in the game, like with CoW where its continent VS continent , with a finger count amount of players left. It took me 3 days to get my tanks from Bogota to the Eastern sea board of Brazil to defend an invasion and then shortly after, launch a counter attack across the Atlantic.




    Im not sure what your point is regarding the TDS running from the cruise missile, because Id prop just let my TDS shoot it down. I still think that since we have disembarking times, we should have maybe an embarking time for units too. I think that may balancing what you are talking about.



    You have some valid points on that missile, and TDS. Ballistic missiles I dont find it worth it, only advantage is they are able to be carried by subs, but even still... I dont bother that much any more with them. Cruise missiles are much more cost effective, accurate, and easier to deploy.
    The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
    - Thomas Jefferson

    Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
    - Milton Friedman

    Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
    - Sun Tzu
  • Sorry my english is to bad to anderstand you.
    My suggestion is only a timelimited airlifting. Because also the USA and Russia can only few tank transported by airlifting. So my suggestion is: you can only 1 or 2 heavy vehicles transported by airlift in 12 hours.
    „Morgen, ihr Luschen!“ --- „Morgen, Chef!“ (Ausbilder Schmidt alias Holger Müller bei der Arbeit)
  • The tank has only slightly better attack and HP per upkeep than the recon and is significantly slower, so without air transport of tanks they are pretty useless. Even with air transport it is questionable if they are worth it due to their speed. One advantage though is that you can get more power in a single stack due to efficiency.
    -danny
  • DxC wrote:

    The tank has only slightly better attack and HP per upkeep than the recon and is significantly slower, so without air transport of tanks they are pretty useless. Even with air transport it is questionable if they are worth it due to their speed. One advantage though is that you can get more power in a single stack due to efficiency.
    I don't know what game you're playing, but that "one" advantage is extremely important when you'll have 4 units a stack. More so when, like a player i'm playing with, you develop a baker's dozen of MBTs and send them down the continent. The fact is, a leveled up MBT is going to have enough HP and damage to decimate anything in front of it. And God forbid it's a Western M1 Abrams, 83 health 10/12 infy/tank damage? That's not "slight better attack and HP", that's a game changer. And why are you counting things per upkeep? Upkeep is only going to matter if it's a huge upkeep, imo.



    Seele07 wrote:

    Sorry my english is to bad to anderstand you.
    My suggestion is only a timelimited airlifting. Because also the USA and Russia can only few tank transported by airlifting. So my suggestion is: you can only 1 or 2 heavy vehicles transported by airlift in 12 hours.
    Your English was fine. And these planes aren't just going to be carrying a few heavy vehicles. A player in global before experienced this same confusion, but these units are not single units. A tank unit is not a single unit, it is a DIVISION. And divisions are very not easy to move around because they amount to 100s of tons of expensive machinery being moved airbase to airbase then unloaded and readied and so on... And i'd have to disagree with the time limitation because in my 30 day old game almost (now only all) all my movement was exclusively contributed to airbases, because my country has just became so large.


    Germanico wrote:

    Very good points there - let us gather some feedback and playtest this before changing.
    What we actually have planned is a new tech allowing reasearch of better transports differentiating more and later in game, or making them depending on airport level...
    Sounds like that'll take a lot of testing out, because if you guys force players into spending precious rare mat on transport aircraft you might end up slowing the game further down. And the number one complaint I see in the chat is that the game is too slow. I don't think it is, but the people on the chat are the only the very tip of the iceberg of the player base (guessing, don't have statistics). But I suppose this'll matter the most late game and late game you'd probably have enough rare mat to get around it.
  • Germanico wrote:

    Remember we upped the tank speed slightly
    That definitely helped. All I was really saying though was that tanks have to have air transport ability or they aren't really very useful in comparison. Given the power and HP they add to a stack without loss of efficiency and the fact that currently there are pretty hefty penalties for taking land quickly they could be pretty useful for marching through countries. Unfortunately they get a big attack penalty in cities which is where this would be most useful so you could take the city without too much bombing/shelling. In provinces you don't get as much of a penalty for bombing/shelling anyway, so no big need for the tank outside of cities.
    -danny
  • Germanico wrote:

    @ProfessionalF: so if players are complaining we are to slow, how is restricting air transport going to help?
    Please elaborate on what you or they define as slow please, so I can understand and help.
    Forcing people to research air transport (Since it's been a really important thing for me, since I have to rapidly move around my large fronts) will force them to avoid researching other units or upgrading units. I guess it really depends on pricing and time to research on the transport aircraft but just making them research transport rather than military units will slow it down.

    And sure they can just not do that research, but then it would take days just for the units to get around.
  • I think it may have been mentioned, but to relate and mirror the complex logistical support needed for tanks, that they be able to only embark and disembark at a higher level air base. In the end of the day, it will be a C-5 Galaxy, and let me post a picture showing have frickin huge they are!












    Would balance it out a lot, the logistics needed are quite large, think the airbase requirements for heavy armor are the most practical solution.
    The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
    - Thomas Jefferson

    Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
    - Milton Friedman

    Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
    - Sun Tzu
  • DxC wrote:

    Again, this would greatly devalue tanks since by the time you've conquered a new city, annexed and built a couple levels of AB the front has moved so far that tanks would never catch up. On the other hand, going really slow may be the only way to keep the AI from ruining your game.
    If you've already conquered a territory, why are you trying to send FRONTLINE units to it? They are made to dish out the first damage, take in the first damage, knock out enemy tanks in the surface, and then you move up in front of the tanks, or with them, to advance further into the enemy.

    I don't know how you're trying to use MBTs, but they shouldn't be sent in after you've already sent units. Think of what MBTs are in real life, they're not quick and very heavy units. But what do you know? Every single country with a modern or pre-modern military uses them. And those countries don't have these huge transportation aircraft just hanging around...
  • DxC wrote:

    Oceanhawk wrote:

    only embark and disembark at a higher level air base
    Again, this would greatly devalue tanks since by the time you've conquered a new city, annexed and built a couple levels of AB the front has moved so far that tanks would never catch up. On the other hand, going really slow may be the only way to keep the AI from ruining your game.
    what professional F said....
    The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
    - Thomas Jefferson

    Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
    - Milton Friedman

    Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
    - Sun Tzu
  • We are also leaning towards an airbase level associated solution to this problem. But it needs coding and is essentially a "feature" we need to put together (albeit not a huge one).
    In the meantime I do think that you are spot on with the remarks about the Anti-Tank units. They really need love...
    "Going to war without France is like going hunting without an accordion." Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf
  • Siding with keeping airlifting for tanks here, their slow speed and near uselessness in cities has reduced them to mobile fortifications for me. They're incredibly vulnerable to air, marginally stronger than CRV (besides health) and significantly slower and expensive (while not so much resources, being 8 hours greater and morale bonuses being a percentage is very time consuming), all for a brigade of armor you have escorting troops to fight the armor they can't, but planes do a better and faster job at. Keep airlifting