Pinned Chinese Tech Tree (Work In Progress)

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    • Pablo22510 wrote:

      'Fraid I can't use them Russian carriers.
      Well the Type 001 Lianiong is a "Russian Carrier". Only the type 0001A and type 0002 are Chinese Carriers which leaves you short of 1. And you won't be able to use the 2 Kutuzov class aircraft carriers since they are the same class and era which means your left with the Kiev class for the Chinese level 1 carriers since it's the only option left. Besides that is not an adequate excuse to exclude something because it is Russian, most of the Chinese Aircraft are Russian copies such as the J-11, J-16 and J-15 Fighter series (Su-27, Su-30, Su-33) so under that logic they cannot be used. The WZ-10 Gunship was designed by a Russian Helicopter Company . The Harbin Z-8 and Z-9 helicopters are all European Helicopters licensed produced in China. Under your logic your going to end up with a very sparse tech tree. The US tech tree uses British Howitzers and some of their armored vehicles are made by Canadian and British companies. Your never going to find a purely indigenious tech tree just because of the nature of the international arms market. Just because it has a Chinese designation doesn't make it Chinese. The Kiev class aircraft carrier works and China has 2 of them. If China needed them they could be brought back into service much like India did with the Admiral Gorshkov Kiev Carrier (now called the INS Vikramaditya). Besides your going to have use Soviet Cruisers to fillout two Chinese Cruiser slots. The Kiev is a Soviet Aircraft carrier, so in terms of technicalities it ain't Russian.

      But if you don't want use it because it shares the same name with the Russian Tech Tree the only alternative is to use the Indian subclass of the Kiev: Brave Sun (Vikramaditya) instead. If China Refits the Kiev to once again become usable they will be pretty much Identical to the INS Vikramaditya. The Kiev class is the only fit for Chinese basic aircraft carrier. And China is the only country that has two of them. But if they are refitted they will essentially be of the Brave Sun class. You going to have to use Soviet Cruisers and a Soviet Aircraft carrier to fillout these blanks.

      Pablo22510 wrote:

      One more issue: which of the Y-9s variants is maritime patrol

      Shaanxi Y-9JB is the Martime Patrol variant

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Lord Aodhan ().

    • Pablo22510 wrote:

      ASW Helicopter:

      Changhe Z-18F

      Harbin Z-9EC

      Ideas?

      Put the Changhe Z-8AEW first
      then Harbin Z-9EC
      and then the Changhe Z-18F.
      The Z-18 will replace the Z-8, is a newer helicopter and will be a better ASW helicopter than the Z-9EC



      Pablo22510 wrote:

      Naval Patrol Aircraft:

      Y8-FQ

      Harbin SH-5

      Ideas?
      Likewise for the Naval Patrol Aircraft the Harbin SH-5 should go before the Y8-FQ since the Y-8 replaced it in the ASW warfare role.


      Y-9JB
      chinese-military-aviation.blog…veillance-aircraft-i.html
      its the aircraft at the bottom of the article.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Lord Aodhan ().

    • Pablo22510 wrote:

      Main Battle Tank:

      Type 69/79

      Type 96

      Type 99
      Oddly enough I've actually found a more modern Tank for China than the Type 69. The Type 69/79 is a obsolete tank compared to the basic tank of other tech tree doctrines and the Chinese already had a replacement for it in the 1980s. The type 80/88, which was then replaced by the Type 96.
      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_88_tank_(China)



      Pablo22510 wrote:

      Amphibious Combat Vehicle:

      Type 92 Amphibious AFV

      ZBD2000

      Type 063A
      The ZBD2000 replaces the Type 063A

    • Pablo22510 wrote:

      Helicopter Gunship:

      Changhe Z-8

      Changhe Z-11

      Changhe Z-18


      Attack Helicopter

      Changzhe Z-11WB

      Harbin Z-19

      CAIC Z-10
      The Changhe Z-11W and Z-11WB are the same helicopter and are both attack variants, one just being slightly modified than the other. You can't really use them in two different categories.
      But there are Chinese Substitutes to fillout these blanks don't worry :)

      Helicopter Gunship:
      Mi-171W (Chinese made variant of the Mi-8TV, which is the Russian Basic Gunship)
      Harbin Z-9WA
      Harbin Z-19 (The Z-19 IS a gunship design based on the Z-9WA, so it's good to keep these two together)

      Attack Helicopter:
      Changhe Z-11W
      CAIC Z-10
      Z-10K Fierce Thunderbolt (New variant of the CAIC Z-10)
      southfront.org/china-introduce…attack-helicopter-photos/

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Lord Aodhan ().

    • China steal everything of the Russians aircraft wise, or off "f-117s in serbia"

      the engines they use that work are all stolen from Russian design, what they build at home all s_uck and wouldnt even pass EU safety regulations
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu

    • Oceanhawk wrote:

      China steal everything of the Russians aircraft wise, or off "f-117s in serbia"

      the engines they use that work are all stolen from Russian design, what they build at home all s_uck and wouldnt even pass EU safety regulations
      Most of China's advanced Military hardware is pretty much Russian and stolen American technology given a Chinese twist.

      I still think they deserve their own doctrine in this game though. China produces alot unique and not so unique looking military equipment and they are probably the closest country when it comes to military parity with the USA and Russia.

      The fact is Russia 300 years ago pretty much made copies of European weapons back in the 1700s when they had no arms industry and now look where they are today (Russian Military uses only Domestic built hardware). China just skipped 40 years worth of military development to take advantage of a bankrupt Russia (1990s-2000s) and used the greatest weapons platform of all the internet to hack into the America's military industrial establishment to bring it's military into the 21st century. How far their Military has come who really knows (I reckon it's still at least a decade behind). I guess that depends on how well they have incorporated hacked American and Russian Technology into their military platforms or if their manufacturing standards produce reliable equipment as you suggested. Simply having advanced military designs is not enough. You need the technical know how to put them together, a modern industrial base to support the production and logistics. The strategies and tactics to apply them effectively and off course materials. Advanced composite production materials such as those used to make lighter stronger Armour or stealthy air frames is something that not easily acquired by simply hacking. You need to know what there made of, how to make them, how they work.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Lord Aodhan ().

    • Lord Aodhan wrote:

      Oceanhawk wrote:

      China steal everything of the Russians aircraft wise, or off "f-117s in serbia"

      the engines they use that work are all stolen from Russian design, what they build at home all s_uck and wouldnt even pass EU safety regulations
      Most of China's advanced Military hardware is pretty Russian and stolen American technology given a Chinese twist.
      I still think they deserve their own doctrine in this game though. China produces alot unique and not so unique looking military equipment and they are probably the closest country when it comes to military parity with the USA and Russia.

      The fact is Russia 300 years ago pretty much made copies of European weapons back in the 1700s when they had no arms industry and now look where they are today (Russian Military uses only Domestic built hardware). China just skipped 40 years worth of military development to take advantage of a bankrupt Russia (1990s-2000s) and used the greatest weapons platform of all the internet to hack into the America's military industrial establishment to bring it's military into the 21st century. How far their Military has come who really knows (I reckon it's still at least a decade behind). I guess that depends on how well they have incorporated hacked American and Russian Technology into their military platforms or if their manufacturing standards produce reliable equipment as you suggested. Simply having advanced military designs is not enough. You need the technical know how to put them together, a modern industrial base to support the production and logistics. The strategies and tactics to apply them effectively and off course materials. Advanced composite production materials such as those used to make lighter stronger Armour or stealthy air frames is something that not easily acquired by simply hacking. You need to know what there made of, how to make them, how they work.
      Damn right, they should have their own tech skins. And when pabs n I were chatting bout it, he made the Chinese and I made the British tech tree. But I would have no interest in the Chinese one.

      As you said they just stole tech. And their carrier the ex- Ukrainian one fails to make China blue water capable, there new ones are apparently to get CATOBAR system like the French and the Americas. Now this will be interesting to see. Funny enough it will be a steam one meanwhile the Americans are already fielding Electromagnetic catapult ones on their new ford class.

      Hahaha, I cant wait to see how this turns out. Id say they are over right now trying to scavenge whatever they can from the "São Paulo"

      Yes and for their gaps in military devlopement, how on earth do they expect to make a dedicated stealth fighter? ... Not even the Americans have a worth mentioning stealth fighter.
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu

    • Pablo22510 wrote:

      Stealth Air Superiority Fighter:

      Chengdu J-20

      Pablo22510 wrote:

      Stealth Strike Fighter:

      Shenyang J-31

      I would switch the J-31 and J-20 around. The J-20 is largely believed to be more strike/multi-role oriented Aircraft. Whilst the J-31 is considered a fighter. The J-31 also seems to be based on the USAF F-22 Stealth Air Superiority fighter. Hence why people doubt it's the Chinese strike aircraft equivalent of the F-35. It seems they went for a lower costing air superiority fighter they could export (J-31) and a multi-mission domestic strike aircraft (J-20).


      Pablo22510 wrote:

      Cruiser:

      Ideas?

      Ideas?

      Type 055
      Been looking up Cruisers to fillout the Cruiser shortage gap. China has no cruisers apart from the Type 55. You have no choice but use Soviet Cruisers I'm afraid. But I did find a Cruiser that the Soviets had used but is not in the Eastern Doctrine: The Kynda Class Cruiser
      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kynda-class_cruiser

      If your wondering Kynda is Russian for Rocket
      Rocket in Chinese is Huojian. So call them Houjian cruisers

      For your Tier 2 Cruiser you probably have no choice but to use the Kara Class. But likewise I given a Chinese translation. Kara is the NATO name for this class of Cruisers. Kara refers to the Kara Sea in Northern Russia (very Russian, no chinese translation). But the Russian designation for the Class is Berkut or Golden Eagle. Golden Eagle in Chinese is Jinying. So I given the soviet cruisers a Chinese makeover, this is literally your only choice for filling out the Chinese tech tree.

      So:
      Houjian Class (Kynda class)
      Jinying (Kara class)
      Type 055

      The post was edited 5 times, last by Lord Aodhan ().

    • Pablo22510 wrote:

      Naval Strike Fighter:

      Ideas?

      Ideas?

      Ideas?
      Finally found some Naval Strike Aircraft

      J-8F (Chinese Navy variant of J-8)
      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_J-8

      JL-9G (Chinese Carrier Capable attack aircraft)
      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guizhou_JL-9

      J-11BSH (2 seater version of J-11BH)
      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_J-11#Variants

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Lord Aodhan ().

    • Pablo22510 wrote:

      Air Superiority Fighter:

      Chengdu J-7

      Chengdu J-10

      Shenyang J-11
      Personnaly I would get rid of the J-11. The J-11 is a heavyweight fighter. Air Superiority Fighters tend to be light weight in CoN. For example the F-16, Typhoon, MiG-29 are all lightweight Air Superiority fighters.

      I would use this tech tree instead:
      J-7
      JF-17 Thunder
      J-10B


      The JF-17 is China's equivalent to the F-16. The J-10B is China's equivalent to the Euro-fighter Typhoon. Which brings it into parity with the other Tech trees. Also since the J-15, J-11 and J-16 are all based on the Su-27, they are pretty much going to look very similar in their animations, which could be confusing for some players moving around air units.
      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC/PAC_JF-17_Thunder


      Pablo22510 wrote:

      Heavy Bomber:

      Nanchang Q-5 nuclear bomber

      Xian H-6

      Xian H-8
      You have already got the Q-5 in the strike fighter category where it belongs. I recommend this bomber tree instead:
      H-6
      H-6K Huan ( Modernization of the H-6, Equivalent to the B-52H Bomber)
      H-8

      Pablo22510 wrote:

      Amphibious Combat Vehicle:

      Type 92 Amphibious AFV

      ZBD2000

      Type 063A
      ZBD2000 and Type 063A need to be switched around. The ZBD2000 is the modern Amphibious Combat Vehicle


      This should finish the Chinese tech tree

      The post was edited 6 times, last by Lord Aodhan ().

    • @Lord Aodhan I cant start some debates on the Chinese stuff, I dont know it as well as I know my western stuff :P

      I usually just b!itch about how its all Stolen American or usually Russian tech... reversed engineered with worse engines.
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu

    • Oceanhawk wrote:

      @Lord Aodhan I cant start some debates on the Chinese stuff, I dont know it as well as I know my western stuff

      I usually just b!itch about how its all Stolen American or usually Russian tech... reversed engineered with worse engines.
      Lol. Well I wouldn't categorize the Chinese J-31 or J-20 as fifth generation. They are woefully under-powered and they probably lack the complex sensor suites of the F-15SE, F-22, F-35 and PAK-FA T-50. I just call them 4th generation Stealth Fighters. The J-11 family (Su-27) is still using the original Russian engines since the Chinese have struggled to develop their own. The fact that the Chinese brought the Su-35S despite apparently owning 4th generation plus aircraft such as the J-11B and J-10B and so called fifth generation aircraft (J-31, J-20) just shows they need to rip off more Russian Tech to enhance their existing aircraft.

      The Chinese Type 52D and Type 55 Cruiser are pretty much copies the US navy Arleigh Burke destroyers. Their Aircraft Carriers are basically Russian designs and so are their Diesel Submarines (Kilo class). There Helicopters are either Russian designed or License built European Helicopters.


      What the Chinese Military is probably good at is Ballistic and Surface to Air Missile technology (SAMs) and Electronic Warfare. They probably have some stealth tech too thanks to Industrial espionage against Lockheed Martin.

      What I don't know about it the capability of their Infantry, I'm guessing they still lag behind Russia and the West. Other their Vehicles. The Chinese Type 96 Main Battle Tank which looks like a hybrid between a Leopard 2 and M1 Abrams performed very well against the Russian T-72B4 (Which is pretty much a upgraded T-72 to T-90A standard) in the Russian Tank Bialthon. Although it was very slow. But apparently it got given a engine upgrade for more power as result of it's competition performance. It's likely Chinese Vehicles are fairly decent but quite under-powered like their aircraft.

      China has Nuclear powered Submarines. But they are probably at 20 years behind Russia, USA, France and the UK.

    • Lord Aodhan wrote:

      Oceanhawk wrote:

      @Lord Aodhan I cant start some debates on the Chinese stuff, I dont know it as well as I know my western stuff

      I usually just b!itch about how its all Stolen American or usually Russian tech... reversed engineered with worse engines.
      Lol. Well I wouldn't categorize the Chinese J-31 or J-20 as fifth generation. They are woefully under-powered and they probably lack the complex sensor suites of the F-15SE, F-22, F-35 and PAK-FA T-50. I just call them 4th generation Stealth Fighters. The J-11 family (Su-27) is still using the original Russian engines since the Chinese have struggled to develop their own. The fact that the Chinese brought the Su-35S despite apparently owning 4th generation plus aircraft such as the J-11B and J-10B and so called fifth generation aircraft (J-31, J-20) just shows they need to rip off more Russian Tech to enhance their existing aircraft.
      The Chinese Type 52D and Type 55 Cruiser are pretty much copies the US navy Arleigh Burke destroyers. Their Aircraft Carriers are basically Russian designs and so are their Diesel Submarines (Kilo class). There Helicopters are either Russian designed or License built European Helicopters.


      What the Chinese Military is probably good at is Ballistic and Surface to Air Missile technology (SAMs) and Electronic Warfare. They probably have some stealth tech too thanks to Industrial espionage against Lockheed Martin.

      What I don't know about it the capability of their Infantry, I'm guessing they still lag behind Russia and the West. Other their Vehicles. The Chinese Type 96 Main Battle Tank which looks like a hybrid between a Leopard 2 and M1 Abrams performed very well against the Russian T-72B4 (Which is pretty much a upgraded T-72 to T-90A standard) in the Russian Tank Bialthon. Although it was very slow. But apparently it got given a engine upgrade for more power as result of it's competition performance. It's likely Chinese Vehicles are fairly decent but quite under-powered like their aircraft.

      China has Nuclear powered Submarines. But they are probably at 20 years behind Russia, USA, France and the UK.
      Sure the J-20 or the J-31 wouldnt even be allowed pass EU regulations to fly in here. (Engines)

      They are decades behind, Japan have such a superior military just dont think they could sustain an invasion of China. Maybe with South Korea, Taiwan. Could certainly would be interesting
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu

    • Oceanhawk wrote:

      Japan have such a superior military
      Yes and no. Japan has the most expensive military force pretty much in the world for it's size. I think because of the export Ban their domestically produced military hardware is very expensive. China could simply Swarm Japan with cheaper military hardware and superior numbers. Interesting fact the F-2 Fighter Jet (Japanese made version of the F-16) was the first use a AESA radar.

      Being an Island nation Japan really needs a strong air force, big navy and amphibious army (Basically marines). But Navy's are usually viewed as expeditionary forces as opposed to defensive. So even if Japan invest's more into it's Navy it would just encourage China to do the same. China currently does not spend 2% of it's of GDP on defense (more like 1.6%). But if Japan increased their budget so would China. China being the bigger the economy having one of the cheapest military forces in the world could easily outnumber Japan in military size and not kill it's economy in the process (like the USSR did). Obviously Japan wouldn't need to having the US subsidizing it's defence. But sometimes quantity matters more than quality. I don't think South Korea, Taiwan or Japan could beat China combined. Quite simply because of China's military size and capability to muster an even larger force. Also China is less vulnerable to blockade than these 3 countries. In the event of war, Russia and the central Asian states could quite literally fuel Chinese industry with raw resources thanks to China's large Asian border. Also North Korea is the most militarized nation on the Earth, that's 6 Million armed people that South Korea has to deal with before it can help Taiwan and Japan out. North Korea and China also have long range stand off missiles that can hit these 3 countries even if a naval blockade or air campaign fails to contain them. China and North Korea are also Nuclear Powers. In fact without the US or another Nuclear Power protecting these 3 Liberal Western looking democratic nations. China and North Korea could just walk all over them.

      To put this into perspective. Nazi Germany had some of the best Military hardware of during world war 2. But it was heavily outnumbered by the US, UK (and Canada) and the USSR. It also couldn't support itself with natural resources. Nor could it deploy advanced equipment in sufficient numbers to turn the tide of the war. "Quantity is a quality in itself" which is why the US is best military force in the world because it has the largest quantity of quality weapons. Japan and to a certain degree Taiwan and South Korea has a high degree of quality military equipment but they can't produce in a quantity to match China.

      SO what would happen if China and North went to war with Japan, Taiwan and South Korea (The Eastern Asian Tripartite)

      3 Months into war, the Eastern Asian Tripartite will do pretty well. The Chinese will loose alot of warhship (Mostly older Corvettes, Frigates and Destroyers), the North Korean Navy will be reduced to a few speed boats and mini subs. North Korea will have no air-force and China will take heavy fighter causalities in engaging ROKAF and JSDAF over the yellow Sea and trying to achieve air supremacy over Taiwan. A shooting war begins on the Korean DMZ between the Korea's mostly artillery bombardment and armored assaults. But under intense air bombardment North Korean forces pull back and South Korean units advance with Japanese army support.

      6 months into the war causality numbers will increase (Especially in Korea) and demand for new hardware will outstretch supply in the Tripartite alliance, China will take fewer causalities and is mass mobilizing it's army and industry for total war. Meanwhile Chinese and North Korean Long range missiles rain upon populated Cities. Chinese submarines sink commercial shipping off the straits of Taiwan cutting trade to Europe and oil from the middle east. Being democratic nations the people will get feed up at their governments and protests will begin.

      8 months into the war. Warship numbers decline and air force fleets start to dwindle for the tripartite alliance due to attrition from Chinese Air defence networks and coastal missile batteries. China begins setting up no fly zones over North Korea and Taiwan. Chinese Shipyards begin replenishing lost warships at a higher rate.

      12 months. Eventually the Chinese Navy succeeds in blockading Taiwan and new Chinese equipment and PLA reinforcements reaches North Korean units allowing them to push back against Japanese and South Korean Forces back to the DMZ. The alliance Fleet retreats Eastward as the Chinese Navy Pushes them off the West coast of Korea. China continues to build up it's military industry and recruit more soldier as Korea and Japan wait for international equipment deliveries from the America and Europe.

      18 Months into the war China launches a massive combined amphibious/Air invasion on Taiwan the likes of which haven't been seen since D-day. North Korean units backed by the Chinese push beyond the DMZ routing the South Korean Military and capture Seoul. Japanese and South Korean forces evacuate from Korea (Dunkirk style) to Japan. South Korean government goes into exile into Japan.

      20 Months. Eventually Japan uses it Nuclear Industry to develop nuclear weapons with US help. After discovering this China and North Korea Nuke Japan into submission. Japan lets off a few of it's own using Cruise Missiles launched from aircraft and destroyers, but the damage is minimal compared to the damage received by Strategic Nuclear ballistic Missiles on it's cities. The Korean Peninsula is unified under North Korean Rule. Taiwan's military continues to resit but eventually falls after Japan surrenders. Taiwan is annexed. Japan is not occupied but is forced into a treaty limiting it's military size, recognizes Chinese sovereignty over some captured Islands in the Yellow Sea and is forced to pay for the rebuilding Korea which is completely destroyed by the war.

      In this scenario without direct military involvement from the US or it's allies these countries are smashed by China and North Korea in about 2 years. China's industrial and population advantage take a few months to kick in. It also uses it's larger submarine force and long range missiles to hurt Taiwan, South Korea and Japan since it's navy is too small to enforce a naval blockade and it's air forces struggles for supremacy being stretched and inferior. Eventually China build's up a large enough force to swarm it's opponents knocking Taiwan and South Korea out.

      If the US was involved I would give China less than a year after it's sues for Peace under a intense Naval blockade and air bombing campaign destroying it's economy. But it will a be a very costly economic war for the US. But they will win (unless it goes nuclear, but even then US still has a advantage)

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Lord Aodhan ().

    • Lord Aodhan wrote:

      Oceanhawk wrote:

      Japan have such a superior military
      Yes and no. Japan has the most expensive military force pretty much in the world for it's size. I think because of the export Ban their domestically produced military hardware is very expensive. China could simply Swarm Japan with cheaper military hardware and superior numbers. Interesting fact the F-2 Fighter Jet (Japanese made version of the F-16) was the first use a AESA radar.
      Being an Island nation Japan really needs a strong air force, big navy and amphibious army (Basically marines). But Navy's are usually viewed as expeditionary forces as opposed to defensive. So even if Japan invest's more into it's Navy it would just encourage China to do the same. China currently does not spend 2% of it's of GDP on defense (more like 1.6%). But if Japan increased their budget so would China. China being the bigger the economy having one of the cheapest military forces in the world could easily outnumber Japan in military size and not kill it's economy in the process (like the USSR did). Obviously Japan wouldn't need to having the US subsidizing it's defence. But sometimes quantity matters more than quality. I don't think South Korea, Taiwan or Japan could beat China combined. Quite simply because of China's military size and capability to muster an even larger force. Also China is less vulnerable to blockade than these 3 countries. In the event of war, Russia and the central Asian states could quite literally fuel Chinese industry with raw resources thanks to China's large Asian border. Also North Korea is the most militarized nation on the Earth, that's 6 Million armed people that South Korea has to deal with before it can help Taiwan and Japan out. North Korea and China also have long range stand off missiles that can hit these 3 countries even if a naval blockade or air campaign fails to contain them. China and North Korea are also Nuclear Powers. In fact without the US or another Nuclear Power protecting these 3 Liberal Western looking democratic nations. China and North Korea could just walk all over them.

      To put this into perspective. Nazi Germany had some of the best Military hardware of during world war 2. But it was heavily outnumbered by the US, UK (and Canada) and the USSR. It also couldn't support itself with natural resources. Nor could it deploy advanced equipment in sufficient numbers to turn the tide of the war. "Quantity is a quality in itself" which is why the US is best military force in the world because it has the largest quantity of quality weapons. Japan and to a certain degree Taiwan and South Korea has a high degree of quality military equipment but they can't produce in a quantity to match China.

      SO what would happen if China and North went to war with Japan, Taiwan and South Korea (The Eastern Asian Tripartite)

      3 Months into war, the Eastern Asian Tripartite will do pretty well. The Chinese will loose alot of warhship (Mostly older Corvettes, Frigates and Destroyers), the North Korean Navy will be reduced to a few speed boats and mini subs. North Korea will have no air-force and China will take heavy fighter causalities in engaging ROKAF and JSDAF over the yellow Sea and trying to achieve air supremacy over Taiwan. A shooting war begins on the Korean DMZ between the Korea's mostly artillery bombardment and armored assaults. But under intense air bombardment North Korean forces pull back and South Korean units advance with Japanese army support.

      6 months into the war causality numbers will increase (Especially in Korea) and demand for new hardware will outstretch supply in the Tripartite alliance, China will take fewer causalities and is mass mobilizing it's army and industry for total war. Meanwhile Chinese and North Korean Long range missiles rain upon populated Cities. Chinese submarines sink commercial shipping off the straits of Taiwan cutting trade to Europe and oil from the middle east. Being democratic nations the people will get feed up at their governments and protests will begin.

      8 months into the war. Warship numbers decline and air force fleets start to dwindle for the tripartite alliance due to attrition from Chinese Air defence networks and coastal missile batteries. China begins setting up no fly zones over North Korea and Taiwan. Chinese Shipyards begin replenishing lost warships at a higher rate.

      12 months. Eventually the Chinese Navy succeeds in blockading Taiwan and new Chinese equipment and PLA reinforcements reaches North Korean units allowing them to push back against Japanese and South Korean Forces back to the DMZ. The alliance Fleet retreats Eastward as the Chinese Navy Pushes them off the West coast of Korea. China continues to build up it's military industry and recruit more soldier as Korea and Japan wait for international equipment deliveries from the America and Europe.

      18 Months into the war China launches a massive combined amphibious/Air invasion on Taiwan the likes of which haven't been seen since D-day. North Korean units backed by the Chinese push beyond the DMZ routing the South Korean Military and capture Seoul. Japanese and South Korean forces evacuate from Korea (Dunkirk style) to Japan. South Korean government goes into exile into Japan.

      20 Months. Eventually Japan uses it Nuclear Industry to develop nuclear weapons with US help. After discovering this China and North Korea Nuke Japan into submission. Japan lets off a few of it's own using Cruise Missiles launched from aircraft and destroyers, but the damage is minimal compared to the damage received by Strategic Nuclear ballistic Missiles on it's cities. The Korean Peninsula is unified under North Korean Rule. Taiwan's military continues to resit but eventually falls after Japan surrenders. Taiwan is annexed. Japan is not occupied but is forced into a treaty limiting it's military size, recognizes Chinese sovereignty over some captured Islands in the Yellow Sea and is forced to pay for the rebuilding Korea which is completely destroyed by the war.

      In this scenario without direct military involvement from the US or it's allies these countries are smashed by China and North Korea in about 2 years. China's industrial and population advantage take a few months to kick in. It also uses it's larger submarine force and long range missiles to hurt Taiwan, South Korea and Japan since it's navy is too small to enforce a naval blockade and it's air forces struggles for supremacy being stretched and inferior. Eventually China build's up a large enough force to swarm it's opponents knocking Taiwan and South Korea out.

      If the US was involved I would give China less than a year after it's sues for Peace under a intense Naval blockade and air bombing campaign destroying it's economy. But it will a be a very costly economic war for the US. But they will win (unless it goes nuclear, but even then US still has a advantage)
      Hehe, well Id pick quality of quantity. China is just sending troops to the fodder. And I never mentioned north korea. Lets do this scenario again where moral and nukes and allies are not a factor....


      (Damit I have to go now, I finish this off later.)
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu

    • Oceanhawk wrote:

      Hehe, well Id pick quality of quantity. China is just sending troops to the fodder. And I never mentioned north korea. Lets do this scenario again where moral and nukes and allies are not a factor....
      Well if North Korea, population morale and Nukes were removed. I would extend the conflict to a 4 year period with either a stalemate or minor victory for China (Taking Taiwan). But Japan and South Korea would not be knocked out in this war and will come out stronger than which they entered. In this Scenario the Japanese Army and ROKA will be able to invade North Eastern China (No North Korea in the way). The ROK Navy and Japanese Navy will cut off the Northern Yellow Sea to China. But China will still be able to take Taiwan although much longer down the line. The Alliance Army will nearly take Beijing but will be repelled by a much larger Chinese Army eventually rolling them back out of China. But China won't be able to invade South Korea and it will end in stalemate. In this scenario Japan will come out of the war largely unscathed compared to everyone else. China will take a lot more casualties than they did in the previous scenario. Taiwan will still be wrecked. South Korea will be better having not being invaded, but it's economy would be a mess and it would have lost a lot of manpower.