Detecting Missiles - Mobile radar and AWACS

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    • Detecting Missiles - Mobile radar and AWACS

      Greetings, I have been bothered quite a lot recently but the inability of mobile radar and AWACS platforms to detect missiles. And yet cruisers can...

      I really believe this needs a change, I dont believe missiles are OP in anyway and I do feel the game is really balancing its self out now. But I think Mobile Radar and AWACS well should be able to detect and track AWACS..


      Let me paint my scenario, at the moment only TDS can only detect Missiles(ignoring navies) In one game I have focused on Air defense over air supremacy. So I could detect inbound Missiles. Now in another game, Im back focusing on air supremacy. Have my beautiful Eurofighter Typhoons dominating the skies along with the help of AWACS and Mobile radar. But this mix makes me unable to detect inbound missiles and puts me at a huge disadvantage. Mobile radar in reality is just as able to detect Inbound missiles.


      2 last little things... Why can Cruisers detect Missiles?

      There are some gaps in my knowledge in relation to ICBMs. Can Radar detect these? I have rarely used them, I believe I have used them once or twice ages ago within a few weeks of the games launch. And I could see someone else fire it at another nation. Huge red line going around the place... I thought it was extremely silly, surely it is not able to be seen by everyone. And most be spotted like a normal cruise missile, with TDS radar or visual identification? gonna have to ask the expert on this one..... @Germanico


      All the best

      Ocean :thumbsup:
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu
    • ppp wrote:

      I use heavy missile strike and air strike to destroy enemy's units. I usually destroy 12-32 units in 2 hours.
      Kinda unrelated... but okay
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu
    • I don't think ICBM are detectable by any way. It was one of my interrogations, by the way. When you see the sub-orbital curve they take before falling on the ennemy, i don't see how even TDS could react in the few minutes the ICBM is "in local airspace" before hitting the ground and devastating the area.

      Yet they have HP, and sub-research to improve HP. So... there must be a way to "kill" them, right ? or maybe it does just depends on the local TDS. By Miracle, if there is 3 TDS on the city, the ICBM will be shot-down last second ? I don't know.

      I wouldn't mind ICBMS to be unilateral weapons of Doom. When they begin to fly off the map, it's usually the sign that "game was long enough" :D and the way modern icbm nuclear weapons work... it's pretty close to that : we don't know how to protect against gravity after 2nd phase of orbital flight.

      _______________

      About missiles, you seem to have recieved them more than me, so you have a better feeling about it, but i don't think AWACS (game-wise) should detect missiles,as their range/mobility/speed make them very nimble for global reco. However, i agree that, if missiles can only be seen by TDS and Cruisers at this point, Adding the capacity to ground mobile radar to see them would buff their interest, in regard especially to the AWACS that is actually for me the "when you don't know go for it" option of reco/def. The (comparative) lack of mobility of the ground mobile radar ensures the natural use would be more def orientated.

      Problem of the AWACS, the little rat can easily find a blind spot of air-reco, and i feel (if it saw missiles) i would use it very quickly to deny my opponent the right to use effectively missiles even in a defensive setting :D
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.
    • Opulon wrote:

      I don't think ICBM are detectable by any way. It was one of my interrogations, by the way. When you see the sub-orbital curve they take before falling on the ennemy, i don't see how even TDS could react in the few minutes the ICBM is "in local airspace" before hitting the ground and devastating the area.

      Yet they have HP, and sub-research to improve HP. So... there must be a way to "kill" them, right ? or maybe it does just depends on the local TDS. By Miracle, if there is 3 TDS on the city, the ICBM will be shot-down last second ? I don't know.

      I wouldn't mind ICBMS to be unilateral weapons of Doom. When they begin to fly off the map, it's usually the sign that "game was long enough" :D and the way modern icbm nuclear weapons work... it's pretty close to that : we don't know how to protect against gravity after 2nd phase of orbital flight.

      _______________

      About missiles, you seem to have recieved them more than me, so you have a better feeling about it, but i don't think AWACS (game-wise) should detect missiles,as their range/mobility/speed make them very nimble for global reco. However, i agree that, if missiles can only be seen by TDS and Cruisers at this point, Adding the capacity to ground mobile radar to see them would buff their interest, in regard especially to the AWACS that is actually for me the "when you don't know go for it" option of reco/def. The (comparative) lack of mobility of the ground mobile radar ensures the natural use would be more def orientated.

      Problem of the AWACS, the little rat can easily find a blind spot of air-reco, and i feel (if it saw missiles) i would use it very quickly to deny my opponent the right to use effectively missiles even in a defensive setting :D
      Well, AWACS is an "Early warning" platform. Where is the point of it, if it cant detect missiles? Its radar is powerful, up to 300 I believe. Just short of the Ground radars 350 and above the TDS 250. (OTOMH)

      Well obviously the radars detect when their paths cross into the radar circle

      I would also be interested to see what the story is regarding ballistic missiles in that sense as well...
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu
    • It's why i used the term "game-wise". In theory AWACS would also server as a command center, and its role goes well beyond the simple "flying radar", but i suppose we don't want some units to have a 100% pickrate in games.


      AWACS always has a +50 range advantage over its ground counterpart, as well as the inherent mobility. It's however more costly (research and production) and unable to spot infantry. Put bluntly, i think that without contextual incentives, i'll always choose the awacs over the Ground radar.

      Adding Missile reco capacity to the two units isn't to the benefit of the Ground mobile radar pickrate. This is partly why i wouldn't suggest buffing the Awacs : It's already worth its price, and missile-reco is a drawback (Inf reco being, i think quite secondary for such an airplane... Especially considering we usually use it in synergy with units that focus on hard-HP units DPS). In the same line of thoughts, Adding the missile-reco to the mobile radar would raise its usefulness as a light support unit you carry around to "look".

      Alternative would be to add missil reco capacity to the two then nerf the AWACS range, but i must admit i quite like it the actual way, so i'll have to deal with balancing changes :D
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.
    • @Oceanhawk Some radar irl can detect missiles- thats one of the major purposes of the Aegis radar system aboard Ticonderoga-class cruisers in the USN (and several other foreign navies to which the system has been exported). Read about them here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticonderoga-class_cruiser
      My question is whether this ability the cruiser has ought to be shifted to frigates, as they seem to be the most powerful ranged air defense unit in the navy. @Germanico I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on that.
      "The enemy cannot push a button, if you disable his hand."
      Sergeant Zim, Terran Federation
    • At least some time ago BMs place of fire was detectable. Now, after many changes related to missile warfare? Not sure.

      In my opinion if unit is able to destroy missile before it hit the target, such a unit should be able to detect them (but all of those units, not only for example frigate). If some unit can detect missile then land radar should be also able to do that (that unit have some special detect ability), AWACs? How would that help or change things?

      r Opulon
      ICBMs are easy to be shot down in this game - done that and also mine ICBMs shared the fate. So please don't confuse reality with this game, it's often different :P From my long experience I can say it looks like making ICBMs is pointless if enemy is not stupid enough to not to use TDS.
    • Eternus wrote:

      At least some time ago BMs place of fire was detectable. Now, after many changes related to missile warfare? Not sure.

      In my opinion if unit is able to destroy missile before it hit the target, such a unit should be able to detect them (but all of those units, not only for example frigate). If some unit can detect missile then land radar should be also able to do that (that unit have some special detect ability), AWACs? How would that help or change things?

      r Opulon
      ICBMs are easy to be shot down in this game - done that and also mine ICBMs shared the fate. So please don't confuse reality with this game, it's often different :P From my long experience I can say it looks like making ICBMs is pointless if enemy is not stupid enough to not to use TDS.
      Ok, understood. I was wondering. So, you can confirm that ICBMS are shot down when hitting their destination, and that at this moment, TDS "do their work" ?
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.
    • RasczakRough wrote:

      @Oceanhawk Some radar irl can detect missiles- thats one of the major purposes of the Aegis radar system aboard Ticonderoga-class cruisers in the USN (and several other foreign navies to which the system has been exported). Read about them here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticonderoga-class_cruiser
      My question is whether this ability the cruiser has ought to be shifted to frigates, as they seem to be the most powerful ranged air defense unit in the navy. @Germanico I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on that.
      I agree, I think Frigates outta be more shifted towards the Air defense focus.

      Many Radars can detect Missiles... I really think its a real issue mobile radar not being able to and TDS being able to...
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu
    • Dude I just
      It's why i used the term "game-wise". In theory AWACS would also server as a command center, and its role goes well beyond the simple "flying radar", but i suppose we don't want some units to have a 100% pickrate in games.

      Opulon wrote:



      AWACS always has a +50 range advantage over its ground counterpart, as well as the inherent mobility. It's however more costly (research and production) and unable to spot infantry. Put bluntly, i think that without contextual incentives, i'll always choose the awacs over the Ground radar.

      Adding Missile reco capacity to the two units isn't to the benefit of the Ground mobile radar pickrate. This is partly why i wouldn't suggest buffing the Awacs : It's already worth its price, and missile-reco is a drawback (Inf reco being, i think quite secondary for such an airplane... Especially considering we usually use it in synergy with units that focus on hard-HP units DPS). In the same line of thoughts, Adding the missile-reco to the mobile radar would raise its usefulness as a light support unit you carry around to "look".

      Alternative would be to add missil reco capacity to the two then nerf the AWACS range, but i must admit i quite like it the actual way, so i'll have to deal with balancing changes :D
      Dude I just dont understand what your saying, Im not gonna lie ;(
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu
    • Hahaha, my fault :D. i'm not very fluent in english, so, if you add the French syntax... :D





      AWACS has, except in early and mid-transition, a +50 range advantage over Ground mobile. If you streamline values into a linear function, you'll see that AWACS has a more powerful "gain" curve (due to the fact the TDS doesn't gain radar range at all). It remains numbers, of course, but when i add to this that the Awacs will in most case be used with its agility....


      Let's see this with a bit of humor



      Here, Only a fraction of radar coverage is irrelevant. Except for other ships and the fact that one shouldn't group so many troops on one point Day 30 (i know, i know ^^), the 300 radar range of the awacs is effectly used to cover a good chunk of sea.




      This is this kind of difference (in stats and agility) that make me think AWACS doesn't need another buff as it is, while Mobile radar would surely benefit from it !
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.
    • Opulon wrote:

      Hahaha, my fault :D. i'm not very fluent in english, so, if you add the French syntax... :D





      AWACS has, except in early and mid-transition, a +50 range advantage over Ground mobile. If you streamline values into a linear function, you'll see that AWACS has a more powerful "gain" curve (due to the fact the TDS doesn't gain radar range at all). It remains numbers, of course, but when i add to this that the Awacs will in most case be used with its agility....


      Let's see this with a bit of humor



      Here, Only a fraction of radar coverage is irrelevant. Except for other ships and the fact that one shouldn't group so many troops on one point Day 30 (i know, i know ^^), the 300 radar range of the awacs is effectly used to cover a good chunk of sea.




      This is this kind of difference (in stats and agility) that make me think AWACS doesn't need another buff as it is, while Mobile radar would surely benefit from it !
      Man I still dont really follow, my point was.. It aint right that TDS can track Missiles and mobile radar or awacs cant

      The 3 of them all kinda are capable for fullfilling each others roles. If I want to track missiles, I should be able to do so with radar.
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu
    • Ground Mobile Radar, I agree, in order to boost the unit as a whole, not the AWACS, because it's already (in my opinion which i explained in my previous post) sufficiently efficient in its way. This is where i follow you idea of adding missile tracking to those units ---> I don't think that the Game balance (pick rate of units for a role, in this case) would benefit from Missile Tracking for AWACS (basically making AWACS the polyvalent indispensable choice), while the grond mobile radar would become suddenly more desirable.


      It's not that i think the AWACS doesn't deserve missile tracking, it's just that the poor ground mobile radar wouldn't have anything for him if the twos have missile tracking. This especially because of the mobility and global radar coverage, which AWACS can optimise much better than ground mobile radar. (Of course, cost are not the same)
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.
    • Opulon wrote:

      Ground Mobile Radar, I agree, in order to boost the unit as a whole, not the AWACS, because it's already (in my opinion which i explained in my previous post) sufficiently efficient in its way. This is where i follow you idea of adding missile tracking to those units ---> I don't think that the Game balance (pick rate of units for a role, in this case) would benefit from Missile Tracking for AWACS (basically making AWACS the polyvalent indispensable choice), while the grond mobile radar would become suddenly more desirable.


      It's not that i think the AWACS doesn't deserve missile tracking, it's just that the poor ground mobile radar wouldn't have anything for him if the twos have missile tracking. This especially because of the mobility and global radar coverage, which AWACS can optimise much better than ground mobile radar. (Of course, cost are not the same)
      Basically you think things balance out better if awacs doesnt get it... so mobile radar has some edge over awacs


      yeah I get ya, well if AWACS cant track missiles thats fine, but I seriously think Mobile radar should,
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu
    • Actually I just checked out AWACS and Ground Radar - both do detect Missiles including CMs.

      Now the reason why BMs and ICBMs go undetected by these systems from a players perspective is the speed at which these missiles travel - literally by the time the player notices there are some birds inbound they are already through the radar envelope.

      One idea would be to substantially SLOW DOWN BMs and ICBMs (not to CM level but...). That would "ensure" them being spotted and probably also shot at (cause that's the other issue - if they fly through the anti-missile envelope before the system actually spots them there is no damage, making these missiles much more dangerous for targeted players than let's say CMs).

      //G
      "Going to war without France is like going hunting without an accordion." Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf
    • @Germanico I don't think they should be slowed down- their speed is part of what makes them such a lethal weapon (and unique in the CON inventory).
      I've noticed that when aircraft are on patrol, they check for units to attack every 15 minutes or so. Do AWACS and ground radar check for the presence of enemy units and missiles using a similar mechanic?
      Also, I thought anti-aircraft mechanics in CON were autonomous. Are anti-missile mechanics not autonomous?
      "The enemy cannot push a button, if you disable his hand."
      Sergeant Zim, Terran Federation

      The post was edited 1 time, last by RasczakRough ().

    • Opulon wrote:

      Ok, understood. I was wondering. So, you can confirm that ICBMS are shot down when hitting their destination, and that at this moment, TDS "do their work" ?
      unfortunately yes :( ICBMs should have a lot more HP to be able to do their work. They are too easy to be shoot down.

      re Germanico
      There is no issue with shooting down BMs/ICBMs so don't nerf them, simply don't. Those units (especially ICBMs) should be harder to destroy, not easier. Rather I would advise to buff BM/ICBM HP.