Insurgents: A unit often Ignored

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    • Insurgents: A unit often Ignored

      So as we all know, Insurgents are a very big menace. But our lovely game CON is really realistic (which is something awesome 8) ) but i don't like one part of the game which is both annoying and unrealistic. Insurgents. I mean, they pop out of nowhere and yet they have 30 hp and are capable of defeating military units. I mean, insurgents are just civilians with guns right? And they shouldn't have 30 hp. Plus, military units are well equipped and well trained and yet its impossible for a motorized/mechanized infantry to take out insurgents without armored vehicles. and another unrealistic thing is, without air defenses , how the heck the insurgents even hit the strike fighters and heavy bombers. Bombers are supposed to fly high and bomb the city without getting hit and yet the insurgents get a bite off every time the air plane reaches their air space.

      So my proposal is,

      1) Nerf their health to 15-20 hit points
      2) Remove their ability to target bombers
      3) Give them a disadvantage towards military units due to their lack of training, equipment and experience of war.
      4) Or if the above 3 points are not possible, add a counter insurgency units. Like some sort of Commandos or stuff like that. they should have about 25 hit points, ability to destroy insurgents with ease (it must be the unit's primary goal) and it should be able to take out 30 hit point insurgents.
      5) If introducing a new unit is not possible by any means, buff the special forces that are currently in the game. its even mentioned in the game that they are good for counter-insurgency missions but their hit points suck. If the above 4 points are not possible, beef up the special forces by doubling its hitpoints, increasing its cost, making them a better counter insurgency tool by adding some sort of upper hand against insurgents by either making the insurgents weak against this unit or making the special forces powerful against this unit.

      Thank you for reading this, leave a feedback if you think these ideas are good/bad. PEACE ! :thumbsup:

    • Civilians with guns... right. That's exactly what the coalition forces in Iraq also thought. Cost them countless lives and 7 years of atrocious warfare.
      Of course many insurgents are actually trained military - or do you think they all just evaporate/die/go to the farm after losing "their" war?
      They are NOT easy pushovers because they are fighting for something they truly believe in. Even if the "good guys" disagree - that still makes them formidable and dangerous enemies.

      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_insurgency_(2003%E2%80%9311)

      Wait till we give them the ability to move... haraharhar.

      On a more serious note: Before we introduced insurgents we had the COW system. It basically works like this: you conquer a place, and leave a bunch of guys. If you are unlucky your bunch of guys turns enemy and the conquered province flips to one of your neighbors (may be even your ally). And no - you could not fight against this. it just happened. Totally confusing and frustrating. So can we make the insurgents more "real" - sure. But do we really want to? Creating an IED hell and terrorizing civilian pop in country on Hilux Pickups? Not so sure tbh. But we can do it. We just have to turn on the movement for these guys.

      //G
      "Going to war without France is like going hunting without an accordion." Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf

    • "The Cow System" ---> Supremacy System :D

      Not fitted at all for CoN.

      Insurgents are at least something that are a bit funny to deal with. It looks like more a Europa Universalis thingy, and it's nice.

      however, in future, maybe there will be room for improvement for those rebels. For now, they usually are just a "pain", like "damn, one day of morale lost on this city. One missile, good bye, i'm retaking the city. For example, Higher pop cities that revolt could be far more severe than provinces or low pop cities.

      After all, a city with 1 of pop may be under the counter-insurgency doctrin that says "nobody rebels if there is nobody left to rebel"
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.

    • I second Opulon in that they definitely have potential for expansion and more features.

      @Senancox: I believe we need to revisit the distribution of them and some of the finer tuning - as you point out. Promise that I will do that once i have a free minute on my hand.

      //G
      "Going to war without France is like going hunting without an accordion." Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf

    • They serve a purpose, they prevent players from just steamrolling a continent with a handful of troops. Their point is to slow you down and force you to commit some troops to help secure conquered territory. They are given a high HP because if they weren't you'd knock them out immediately and they wouldn't serve any purpose. They don't rally. They don't invade. They don't deploy any tactics.

    • Germanico wrote:

      I second Opulon in that they definitely have potential for expansion and more features.

      @Senancox: I believe we need to revisit the distribution of them and some of the finer tuning - as you point out. Promise that I will do that once i have a free minute on my hand.

      //G
      Thank you brother. You are kinda right about the iraqi insurgency. A small tweak in their HP would be good. and their ability to move around and conquer would be nice too. It would give me a reason to conquer those 2-3 insurgent provinces that i always leave because those are provinces and not cities but since they would be able to move, the players will be forced to attack and destroy them. that is good ! I support this.

    • Germanico wrote:

      Wait till we give them the ability to move... haraharhar.
      Petrov! Pack the nuke, we got work to do! Yuri failed to shoot everyone in the city we conquered yesterday!

      On a serious note, I agree.
      the insurgents really need to start moving around.

      I tend to ignore them because they just stand there. Slowing me down? Nope. I don't even feel their existence. I just ignore them, go after the main targets then return to smash them with little to no problems.

    • Well, ISIS is funded, trained and armed by many countries. They don't pop up from nowhere, they are islamic mercenaries,trained in Jordany and Turkey, equiped US Stinger missiles etc.

      I'd like to see insurgent move :)

      By the way, you could add a new infantry unit : the militia. Militians are loyalist, cheap and weak in fight. But actually they are used in most theetra of war : nazi battalions for Ukraine, volunteers in Donbass and a lot of loyalist militants in Syria.

      In game, they could require some resources to buy and upkeep, but not Manpower ! Also, they can't move from their city.
      Frexit

    • @senancox: really bad suggestion to make game boring.

      Germanico wrote:

      Wait till we give them the ability to move... haraharhar.
      i wait for it since monthes ))

      Opulon wrote:

      however, in future, maybe there will be room for improvement for those rebels.
      i would glad see rebels can have more then only 1 type units.
      And please stop revolt insurgented provinces, i saw many times insurgents vs insurgents battles. I use commonly insurgents for my startegy: killing industry from my enemy and let insurgents rule those cities. so my enemy must lose time and may be units for fighting cities back. But since insurgents are really weak it makes not really sence. Please make insurgents mobile and with two types of units, and risk of insurgents vs insurgents fights should be lowered.

      Kristovi wrote:

      I'd like to see insurgent move
      me too.

      Kristovi wrote:

      By the way, you could add a new infantry unit : the militia.
      if we would have militia please very slow, something like 0.3 - 0.4 on common terrain and 0.1 - 0.2 on difficult terrains. and very weak, weaker then insurgents.

    • Kristovi wrote:

      Well, ISIS is funded, trained and armed by many countries. They don't pop up from nowhere, they are islamic mercenaries,trained in Jordany and Turkey, equiped US Stinger missiles etc.

      I'd like to see insurgent move :)

      By the way, you could add a new infantry unit : the militia. Militians are loyalist, cheap and weak in fight. But actually they are used in most theetra of war : nazi battalions for Ukraine, volunteers in Donbass and a lot of loyalist militants in Syria.

      In game, they could require some resources to buy and upkeep, but not Manpower ! Also, they can't move from their city.
      Yeah well they are the mercenaries of the U.S.A and their purpose is to get control of the Syrian Oil and other stuff to sell it to the U.S because assad was denying it. Same for Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi. And i personally think that the Militia would be a useless unit since everybody is planning to make it weak and slow so who the heck would train it lmao. I think, special forces need a boost in hitpoints since they are pretty much inferior to the Mechanized Infantry. They should have at least 25 hitpoints and the ability to attack insurgents more efficiently than any other unit.

    • This would imply creating a new HP-type for insurgents only, something like "irregulars". Maybe a bit overkill, in terms of complexity :D
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.

    • Well one that is not true about ISIS but let's keep this level of politics out of the game. Fox News has done a huge damage to my country.

      My only beef with insurgents is coming to cities in other countries that have been rogue for awhile and finding 15-20 of them is a pain in the butt. It seems rather excessive especially considering the pop of the city is 1 and being overstacked did not hinder them to my modern infantry. Pain in the butt as in I have a much easier time against regulars. Since my bombers apparently are low flying as, psst stingers would not be used against say B52s coming in for a magic carpet run, they take a butt ton of damage to that many insurgents. Stingers, my Chaparral for example are for low flying aircraft. Even the vulcan. This is what the patriot was developed for, medium to high altitude as it has a targeting system designed for it. Chap even with the FLIR were still optical as the stingers are. The rails as well do not have that kind of elevation as missiles do not ignite on the rail. 3000 PSI shoots the missile off the rail and then the solid state rocket motor kicks in. FLIR is about 5-7km visibility and only the guy in he mount has that. The forward and rear OPs are optical, ie human eyes with binos. I now have to kill you as I am not sure if that is still classified. I know there is game balance etc but again the amount that accumulates in rogue cities, argh.

      Being able to move around yes would be nice. It adds that element I talked about before in Tommy Franks thinking the Iraqis would be so happy to be rid of Saddam that they would throw flowers in the air YET they dismissed the Iraqi military without understanding the sectarian hatred and with the Iraqi military being mostly Sunni and the new govt being mostly Shia. So Franks only planned for what was needed to invade and eliminate Iraqi forces and not for what the aftermath could bring and what would be needed to maintain the peace post conflict. It is why we have been there so long for that lack of insight. That insight in not thinking and failing to follow the rules of land warfare to where it is the duty of an invading army to get the water, power, commerce, and law and order back up ASAP. You do not let looting go on for days. If you leave a power void, it will be filled.

      So yeah it would make sense to have insurgents move about reclaiming land for their own country or a new one entirely. Whatever their motives are, as they may be "freedom" fighters or former military of the conquered nation or both. In context of the USA in this game we have 1000s of home grown extreme right wing militias here just waiting for our current govt to collapse so they can carve out their little piece of "Eden" and welcome all to their version of the promised land.
      Ain't Nothing But A Thing!

    • Personally, I think you went a bit over board with the insurgents. I just had some 10 of them spawn out of nowhere and begin roaming around taking my provinces although there were provinces of other players right next to it. I notice the more VP's you have the worse they become and seemingly target the one with the most VP. When the game becomes you're just chasing insurgents around it's just plain ridiculous. And after 45+ days of game play it's not that your playing against other players but against the AI and that's just annoying and isn't any longer fun.

      Just my 2 cents.
      " “If we can’t persuade nations with comparable values of the merit of our cause we better reexamine our reasoning.” - Robt. S. McNamara

    • About morale management, i think that arms industry should provide, like other buildings, a small micro boost (+1/+2/+3/+5/+7).
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.

    • Please be aware we tuned down insurgents even further in one of the recent updates. No longer do they spawn in provinces (unless you are playing an older game).

      So 10 insurgents spawning out of nowhere - then you are doing something wrong or being the target of enemy agent activity (yes they will reduce your city morale and eventually lead to insurgencies).

      //G
      "Going to war without France is like going hunting without an accordion." Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf