Little thing on changing some heli tree

Oceanhawk · May 31st 2017, 10:38pm

Hi all, just a few things I wanted to put up regarding the heli trees. They just have been bothering me for some time, and many of you know... I take the tree's seriously

;European

ASW Helo Tier 1 [AB 212] --swap to-------- [NH90 NFH]

The AB 212 Aint European, and we need the NH-90 in somewhere, it's such a nice aircraft.

American

Attack Helo and Gunships... This is kinda annoying me

The American gunships, all being cobra's is not proper. In reality, they are all attack helicopters. And in no way are really able to be compared with the Gunships from the other skins. So I propose that the Cobras send them to the Attack Heli skins. And remove the Raider. It's so ugly and just discourages me to research it. If not just move the Cobra up there and replace in 3 new units for gunships

AH-6M Little Bird ----- McDonnell Douglas MD 500 Defender ----------------Bell UH-1Y Venom --------

"Yeah Ocean nobody really cares, this just a waste of time" - Well maybe it is. I just want to get it off my neck, and leave it out there

Opulon · May 31st 2017, 10:49pm

I do care. Graphism is the shell of communication.

I do not have the tenth of your military technical knowledge, but i know that once the 3D graphist has worked on units, he has his own road map and it's actually hard to "steer", return earlier in the planning... it generates frictions, bottlenecks, etc...Not speaking of the pratical need to use the created assets.

However, it's just a suggestion, but maybe, for future updates of this kind, the units they intend to design could be reviewed as somekind of "preliminary feedback" by a little group of happy few (like you) to give an opinion on it.

Of course, some units are choosed over others because of their popularity, or some non-realistic reasons, but brainstorm has never hurted anyone.

Except interns
Or human beings.
Not consultants, never.

Germanico · Jun 2nd 2017, 3:37pm

We are not working on the helis atm so will gladly take some of the knowledge Oceanhawk is sharing with us into further consideration.

Thanks for the info btw - good stuff!

//G

Oceanhawk · Jun 2nd 2017, 3:55pm

Germanico wrote:

We are not working on the helis atm so will gladly take some of the knowledge Oceanhawk is sharing with us into further consideration.

Thanks for the info btw - good stuff!

//G

Well I do appreciate that, I kinda would like to see more of a role of helicopters in game.
Have been brainstorming along the lines of transport helicopters, maybe being able to air assault retreating units or damaged units or such.

I may make a thread later on today, but I feel there lots of potential in the helicopter area. Especially now with the FOB's

War-spite · Jun 3rd 2017, 4:41am

I understand that heli's aren't top priority right now, but if you are putting notes on the page for later anyway.... any chance of having the graphic for air assault units update in the later game from chinooks to (ocean will know this unit better than I will) the tilt rotor plane that the US marines are using now?

Oceanhawk · Jun 3rd 2017, 10:17am

War-spite wrote:

I understand that heli's aren't top priority right now, but if you are putting notes on the page for later anyway.... any chance of having the graphic for air assault units update in the later game from chinooks to (ocean will know this unit better than I will) the tilt rotor plane that the US marines are using now?

*Ospreys... and Marines done use Chinooks

Oceanhawk · Jun 3rd 2017, 10:53am

And I wouldnt recommend the osprey being the last heli, Id rather see some others instead

War-spite · Jun 4th 2017, 5:24am

Oceanhawk wrote:

And I wouldnt recommend the osprey being the last heli, Id rather see some others instead

I didn't mean as the heli unit, i meant as the graphic for the air assault in transport.

Oceanhawk · Jun 5th 2017, 2:33pm

War-spite wrote:

Oceanhawk wrote:

And I wouldnt recommend the osprey being the last heli, Id rather see some others instead

I didn't mean as the heli unit, i meant as the graphic for the air assault in transport.

Hehe, I know what you meant.

Personally, I would rather see

Blackhawk
CH-47 Chinook
CH-53K King Stallion

The CH-53K is more powerful than the Chinook, and can even carry around the Blackhawk
But yes, the Ospreys are pretty cool too. Damn USMC, Always have the coolest helicopters

War-spite · Jun 6th 2017, 5:42am

Oceanhawk wrote:

War-spite wrote:

Oceanhawk wrote:

And I wouldnt recommend the osprey being the last heli, Id rather see some others instead

I didn't mean as the heli unit, i meant as the graphic for the air assault in transport.

Hehe, I know what you meant.

Personally, I would rather see

Blackhawk
CH-47 Chinook
CH-53K King Stallion

The CH-53K is more powerful than the Chinook, and can even carry around the Blackhawk
But yes, the Ospreys are pretty cool too. Damn USMC, Always have the coolest helicopters

Correct me if am wrong, but shouldn't that order be reversed? Wasn't the king stallion an earlier helicopter than the blackhawk? For sure the chinook was. I am still waiting patiently for my helicarriers that can carry a marine unit on board with the heli's.

Oceanhawk · Jun 6th 2017, 10:29am

War-spite wrote:

Oceanhawk wrote:

War-spite wrote:

Oceanhawk wrote:

And I wouldnt recommend the osprey being the last heli, Id rather see some others instead

I didn't mean as the heli unit, i meant as the graphic for the air assault in transport.

Hehe, I know what you meant.
Personally, I would rather see

Blackhawk
CH-47 Chinook
CH-53K King Stallion

The CH-53K is more powerful than the Chinook, and can even carry around the Blackhawk
But yes, the Ospreys are pretty cool too. Damn USMC, Always have the coolest helicopters

Correct me if am wrong, but shouldn't that order be reversed? Wasn't the king stallion an earlier helicopter than the blackhawk? For sure the chinook was. I am still waiting patiently for my helicarriers that can carry a marine unit on board with the heli's.

O no, you are completely correct. But I dont believe that this is what we should go by. The CH-53K is a completely different airframe than the E. Yes I those helicarriers very badly haha, support those seaborne assaults

Here is a nice picture XD (And this is the E, imagine what the K can do

)

Opulon · Jun 6th 2017, 11:07am

Don't forget that for us military casuals, we like to see, for late tech units, units that look like "advanced", futuristic if possible :p

Oceanhawk · Jun 6th 2017, 5:01pm

Opulon wrote:

Don't forget that for us military casuals, we like to see, for late tech units, units that look like "advanced", futuristic if possible :p

Hehe, dont worry. As far as helicopters go, this is pretty futuristic. Compared to the Blackhawk

War-spite · Jun 6th 2017, 7:57pm

I do love me some jolly green giants.

DevinMacGregor · Jun 7th 2017, 2:26am

Blackhawks were for carrying a squad of light infantry at a time. They replaced the UH 1 Iroquois who had served that purpose since Viet Nam. These are what the airmobile for the US Army would had been using most of the time for line squads. 1st Cav was Armor, Mech, and Airmobile. We were right next to the 6th Attk and we would watch the LRRPs hanging from their lines off their Blackhawks as they passed our motor pool. Chinooks could and did carry troops but it had a different functions and was US Army. Sea Knight was the US Navy variant which is what the Marines would had been using. The Osprey replaced it.

Golly Greens and Super Stallions had different purposes and for different branches.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Vertol_CH-46_Sea_Knight
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_CH-47_Chinook
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_UH-1_Iroquois
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_UH-60_Black_Hawk

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_CH-53E_Super_Stallion
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Boeing_V-22_Osprey

Interesting list or just some typos.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_…_States_military_aircraft

DevinMacGregor · Jun 7th 2017, 2:42am

To the point about gunships. Yes the AH 1 is also a gunship. UH-1 could be slicks as well as hogs and frogs, ie gunships. It is just a helo with a gun pod etc mounted on them to include rocket pods. They put TOWs an UH-1s as well in Viet Nam. Hmmm attack helo?

The UH 1 was a workhorse craft. It is designated as a utility because it can serve multifunctions. AH-1s were the transition of gunship to pure attack BUT it had a gun mounted in its chin and you had hardpoints on its itty bitty baby wings that typically had more gun pods or rocket pods. Thus a gunship. As time went on they mounted TOWs on them. The Apache was actually designed from mission data from Viet Nam as is simply designed as an attack helo. You could mount rocket pods and more gun pods on the hardpoints on an Apache. It would be really a waste of its capability but it would be a gunship none the less.

Gunship is a simple term. Do not read too much into it.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunship

"During the Vietnam War, the ubiquitous Bell UH-1 Iroquois helicopters were modified into gunships by mounting the U.S. Helicopter Armament Subsystems—these were forward-firing weapons, such as machine guns, rockets, and autocannons, that began to appear in 1962–1963.^[14] Rotary-wing aircraft (helicopters) can use a variety of combat maneuvers to approach a target. In their case, the term gunship is synonymous with heavily armed helicopter.^[15] Specifically, dedicated attack helicopters such as the Bell AH-1 Cobra also fit this meaning.^[15] In any case, the gunship armaments include machine guns, rockets, autocannons, missiles, etc.^[15]"

Oceanhawk · Jun 7th 2017, 10:33am

DevinMacGregor wrote:

Blackhawks were for carrying a squad of light infantry at a time. They replaced the UH 1 Iroquois who had served that purpose since Viet Nam. These are what the airmobile for the US Army would had been using most of the time for line squads. 1st Cav was Armor, Mech, and Airmobile. We were right next to the 6th Attk and we would watch the LRRPs hanging from their lines off their Blackhawks as they passed our motor pool. Chinooks could and did carry troops but it had a different functions and was US Army. Sea Knight was the US Navy variant which is what the Marines would had been using. The Osprey replaced it.

Golly Greens and Super Stallions had different purposes and for different branches.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Vertol_CH-46_Sea_Knight
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_CH-47_Chinook
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_UH-1_Iroquois
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_UH-60_Black_Hawk

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_CH-53E_Super_Stallion
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Boeing_V-22_Osprey

Interesting list or just some typos.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_…_States_military_aircraft

I wasn't referring to Golly Green Giants.

I wanted the Iroquois in with the heli gunships. There no issue at all with having the CH-53K As the last tier for the airborne infantry. The Marines use them, as does other militarizes (other versions but still). I am well aware the US Army never used the CH-53 in whatever shape or form.

Oceanhawk · Jun 7th 2017, 10:36am

DevinMacGregor wrote:

To the point about gunships. Yes the AH 1 is also a gunship. UH-1 could be slicks as well as hogs and frogs, ie gunships. It is just a helo with a gun pod etc mounted on them to include rocket pods. They put TOWs an UH-1s as well in Viet Nam. Hmmm attack helo?

The UH 1 was a workhorse craft. It is designated as a utility because it can serve multifunctions. AH-1s were the transition of gunship to pure attack BUT it had a gun mounted in its chin and you had hardpoints on its itty bitty baby wings that typically had more gun pods or rocket pods. Thus a gunship. As time went on they mounted TOWs on them. The Apache was actually designed from mission data from Viet Nam as is simply designed as an attack helo. You could mount rocket pods and more gun pods on the hardpoints on an Apache. It would be really a waste of its capability but it would be a gunship none the less.

Gunship is a simple term. Do not read too much into it.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunship

"During the Vietnam War, the ubiquitous Bell UH-1 Iroquois helicopters were modified into gunships by mounting the U.S. Helicopter Armament Subsystems—these were forward-firing weapons, such as machine guns, rockets, and autocannons, that began to appear in 1962–1963.^[14] Rotary-wing aircraft (helicopters) can use a variety of combat maneuvers to approach a target. In their case, the term gunship is synonymous with heavily armed helicopter.^[15] Specifically, dedicated attack helicopters such as the Bell AH-1 Cobra also fit this meaning.^[15] In any case, the gunship armaments include machine guns, rockets, autocannons, missiles, etc.^[15]"

My point was, how on earth does the cobra or viper, which really competes against the likes of the Apache and the Tiger. Supposed to be the western equivalent of a Gazelle or a Puma. Or the Russian hind's

DevinMacGregor · Jun 7th 2017, 10:02pm

Oceanhawk wrote:

DevinMacGregor wrote:

Blackhawks were for carrying a squad of light infantry at a time. They replaced the UH 1 Iroquois who had served that purpose since Viet Nam. These are what the airmobile for the US Army would had been using most of the time for line squads. 1st Cav was Armor, Mech, and Airmobile. We were right next to the 6th Attk and we would watch the LRRPs hanging from their lines off their Blackhawks as they passed our motor pool. Chinooks could and did carry troops but it had a different functions and was US Army. Sea Knight was the US Navy variant which is what the Marines would had been using. The Osprey replaced it.

Golly Greens and Super Stallions had different purposes and for different branches.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Vertol_CH-46_Sea_Knight
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_CH-47_Chinook
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_UH-1_Iroquois
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_UH-60_Black_Hawk

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_CH-53E_Super_Stallion
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Boeing_V-22_Osprey

Interesting list or just some typos.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_…_States_military_aircraft

I wasn't referring to Golly Green Giants.
I wanted the Iroquois in with the heli gunships. There no issue at all with having the CH-53K As the last tier for the airborne infantry. The Marines use them, as does other militarizes (other versions but still). I am well aware the US Army never used the CH-53 in whatever shape or form.

Someone else mentioned the Golly Green hence why I put them in there. Yeah there is an issue with having the CH-53K used by the airborne because the airborne are US Army NOT US Marines. That is a heavy lift cargo helo. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_CH-53K_King_Stallion

Are you aware of this? ... because apparently not. I was US Army. US Marines are Naval Infantry in this game. Motorized, Mechanized, and Airborne are all US Army.

Chinooks also predate Blackhawks. Although a Chinook can carry troops the Iroquois did so with much greater capacity which the Blackhawk took over. Chinooks were typically heavy lift as well. You did not drop a Chinook typically into a hot LZ. US Marines and US Air Force use the Osprey. The point being are that Blackhawks are cheaper and can deliver the goods, ie put boots on the ground rapidly. The King Stallion is not cheap and again would be use more for its primary role as a heavy lift helo as well as NOT used by the airborne.

DevinMacGregor · Jun 7th 2017, 11:25pm

Oceanhawk wrote:

AH-6M Little Bird ----- McDonnell Douglas MD 500 Defender ----------------Bell UH-1Y Venom ---

Oceanhawk wrote:

DevinMacGregor wrote:

To the point about gunships. Yes the AH 1 is also a gunship. UH-1 could be slicks as well as hogs and frogs, ie gunships. It is just a helo with a gun pod etc mounted on them to include rocket pods. They put TOWs an UH-1s as well in Viet Nam. Hmmm attack helo?

The UH 1 was a workhorse craft. It is designated as a utility because it can serve multifunctions. AH-1s were the transition of gunship to pure attack BUT it had a gun mounted in its chin and you had hardpoints on its itty bitty baby wings that typically had more gun pods or rocket pods. Thus a gunship. As time went on they mounted TOWs on them. The Apache was actually designed from mission data from Viet Nam as is simply designed as an attack helo. You could mount rocket pods and more gun pods on the hardpoints on an Apache. It would be really a waste of its capability but it would be a gunship none the less.

Gunship is a simple term. Do not read too much into it.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunship

"During the Vietnam War, the ubiquitous Bell UH-1 Iroquois helicopters were modified into gunships by mounting the U.S. Helicopter Armament Subsystems—these were forward-firing weapons, such as machine guns, rockets, and autocannons, that began to appear in 1962–1963.^[14] Rotary-wing aircraft (helicopters) can use a variety of combat maneuvers to approach a target. In their case, the term gunship is synonymous with heavily armed helicopter.^[15] Specifically, dedicated attack helicopters such as the Bell AH-1 Cobra also fit this meaning.^[15] In any case, the gunship armaments include machine guns, rockets, autocannons, missiles, etc.^[15]"

My point was, how on earth does the cobra or viper, which really competes against the likes of the Apache and the Tiger. Supposed to be the western equivalent of a Gazelle or a Puma. Or the Russian hind's

Ok let us talk about gunships. MANY US craft have DUAL roles. I initially had a beef with them not have the F15 as Air Superiority and only as a Strike when again the aircraft has a dual role. It plays as both air superiority and strike. This was more likely done out of diversity.

This game has a progression of time from basic to advance to modern. Modern I am assuming is what is used today. Basic not sure how far back.

So you have this beef with the term gunship and them using the AH 1 Cobra throughout the tree YET I can agree maybe the first one should be the UH 1 then the AH 1. Does the US even use them to this capacity anymore? AH-64s serve ALL these capacities btw. They are not just anti armor but anti personnel as well. That is why they have the big old gun under the chin.

AH-6M Little Bird - You do know the A stands for attack, correct? So this is the craft you want to put in the basic category of US TOE?

boeing.com/defense/ah-6-light-attack-helicopter/

Here is the MH-6 Little Bird which was first built in 1963.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MD_Helicopters_MH-6_Little_Bird

The AH-6 was developed FROM the MD 500 and the MH 6 as well as first flew in 2004. This is what you want to be in the BASIC slot for US TOE? ie tech tree? So we travel back in time? To stop the Japanese from attacking Pearl?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_AH-6

You then wanted to put into the Advance slot the MD 500 Defender?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MD_Helicopters_MD_500
This was first introduced in 1982. It was developed from the Cayuse which was first introduced in 1966 or so. They served as observation. We see this is Apocalypse Now. They were part of hunter killer teams in Viet Nam. The cayuse that is.

This gives the history of US development of its gunship as the AH-1 was originally the UH-1H.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_AH-1_Cobra

So for the US tree to be more historically accurate as in timeline it would go UH-1 Iroquois then the AH-1 Cobra. The problem is the modern and you just seem to want to throw in craft to suit your own peccadilloes than what is actually used in those roles for the timeline. Both US Army and US Marines used these crafts for these roles in that timeline.

The other issue is the Viper since it is primarily used by the US Marines as the US Army uses Apaches for all those roles as I already noted.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_AH-1Z_Viper
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_AH-64_Apache

I do not expect these to be exact equivalents either between countries. I see them more as what is actually being used for those roles. Maybe some countries just have better craft for those particular roles.

For the Attack Helo tree I can see the AH-1, AH-64A, then the AH-64 Longbow or latest variant.

Share