Israeli Tech Tree (Work In Progress)

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    • Hi Dante, from m experience an Israeli tech tree is not do able. They lack any type of fixed wing aircraft, any type of helicopter and naval asset.

      And please following a good tree outline that you can find in one of the many done already









      Use Helicopters, Special forces or Stealth. Use your head to play - not the missile button. - Germanico
    • Israel is an extremely fun nation to play as. The tech tree however is very complex.

      I have been reading quite a bit lately about IDF and technology which theyused. In 1950s they bought up quite a bit of old Sherman tanks and modifiedthem. Their entire air force consists of aircraft which were made by othercountries and then modified slightly.

      With that in mind, if we look at countries like Pakistan, Egypt, Syria,Iraq, Iran.. well, pretty much most of the countries purchase their aircraftrather then building them.

      What would solve the tech tree quite a bit, especially for Role Playingrounds where realism takes priority, would be the ability to trade units, orbetter yet, ability of units to be included in the world market.
      Probably more difficult to implement then just a simple click and paste, butin real life, that is how military equipment is sold.

      In contemporary times, Israel’s biggest advantage is not in numbers but in technology. Israel is the biggest drone expert in the world. One of the largest arms exporters and has the most sophisticated spy network in the world.



      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_equipment_of_Israel

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Taakar ().

    • @Oceanhawk you said your concerns were fixed-wing aircraft, helicopters, and naval assets?
      Here are some suggestions about those concerns specifically that you and @Dante4670 can play around with. All of these units saw service in the IDF after WWII.

      Fighters: Dassault Super Mystere B2 -> IAI Kfir -> F-16C Barak
      Stealth Fighter: F-35I
      Strike Fighters: IAI Tzukit -> IAI Nesher -> F-16I Sufa
      Stealth Strike Fighter: F-35I (if it's ok to use the SR-71 as a stealth combat aircraft for the European doctrine, we can get over using the same model as both stealth air superiority and strike aircraft if they have different stats)
      UAV: Tadiran Mastiff -> IAI Heron -> IAI Eitan
      Strategic Bombers: Sud Aviation Vautour -> F-4 Phantom II Kurnass -> F-15I Ra'am
      AWACS: E-2C Hawkeye -> EL/M-2075 Phalcon -> IAI EL/W 2085 Eitam
      Naval Patrol Aircraft: PBY Catalina -> IAI Arava -> IAI 1124N Shahaf

      Gunship Helicopter: Bell UH-1 -> Bell AH-1 Tzefa -> Bell AH-1 Tzefa (was replaced by UAVs IRL)
      Attack Helicopter: Hughes 500 Lahatut -> AH-64A Peten -> AH-64D Seraph
      ASW/ASuW Helicopter: -> Eurocopter HH-65 Dolphin -> Eurocopter AS565 Panther

      Corvette: Dabur class -> Super Dvora class -> Shaldag class
      Frigate: River class -> Sa'ar 2 class -> Sa'ar 6 class
      Destroyer: Z class -> Sa'ar 4 class -> Sa'ar 4.5 Aliyah subclass
      Cruiser: Sa'ar 3 class -> Sa'ar 4.5 Hetz subclass -> Sa'ar 5

      Attack Submarine: T class -> Gal class -> Dolphin class
      Missile Submarine: Gal class -> Dolphin class -> Dolphin II class

      Cruise Missile: Gabriel -> Delilah -> Popeye Turbo
      Ballistic Missile: Jericho I SRBM -> EXTRA -> LORA
      ICBM: Jericho II -> Shavit -> Jericho III

      I admit to being at something of a loss for fixed wing naval aviation assets, and clearly there is no indigenous class of aircraft carrier. Maybe a drawback to this doctrine should be fewer naval and naval aviation units to research, and in exchange for that, land-based air units should have a range bonus? If we limit potential doctrines to those nations or alliances which indigenously produce aircraft carriers, I think we're not getting the most out of the ability to create additional doctrines.

      For Special Forces units, I think Sayeret Matkal makes more sense than Maglan or Shayetet 13- Israeli SF are known for Sayerot (plural form of Sayeret), just like the US is known for Rangers and Ryussia is famous for its Spetznaz formations. Sayeret Matkal is the SF unit of the high command and has a history going back to the 1950s, while Shayetet 13 is the naval SF formation and Maglan is a fairly new LRRP unit.

      I also disagree with Dante's suggestion that the Israeli Doctrine should have lower combat values but more HP- I think it should be the opposite. The IDF, as I understand it, has never been afraid to engage in combat (if I've read anything consistent about the force, its that its commanders are always looking to jump the gun and attack first), but that they've always been very cognizant of casualties and attempted to limit them. Furthermore, the bulk of the IDF is reservists, which means they cannot sustain a mobilization for a fairly long time without severely damaging their economy. I think these facts in real life support a doctrine in the game with slightly higher offensive stats, no change in defensive stats, and a corresponding reduction in HP.

      I apologize for this not conforming to the formatting standards, but this is not a tech tree in itself. Rather, it is a suggestion to those compiling the tech tree. I would also suggest in terms of balance that this tree have better than average aircraft and less than average artillery to balance this.
      "The enemy cannot push a button, if you disable his hand."
      Sergeant Zim, Terran Federation
    • Check me if i am wrong, but Israel is not a playable country right? And does anyone use Israeli tech outside of Israel? I am not criticizing the tech or your vision of it, but it just seems even less relevant than say a Canadian tech tree.
      ----------------------

      Jacopo: Why not just kill them? I'll do it! I'll run up to Paris - bam, bam, bam, bam. I'm back before week's end. We spend the treasure. How is this a bad plan?

      Remember that no one ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb idiot die for his country.
    • @War-spite for the most part I think that you are correct, but there are 3 significant factors that make me question it and that therefore make the conversation worth having.
      1- UAVs: Israel produces some of the world's most effective UAVs and sells them to other countries. I actually think one of the European doctrine UAVs is Israeli.
      2- Indigenous design and production: Israel has design and production facilities for military hardware that are absolutely incredible for a country with its population and size. Every progression I listed, except the maritime and gunship helicopters, has at least one design that is either designed and built in Israel, built in a foreign country to Israeli design specifications, or a subvariant of a unit type so distinct as to be its own subvariant (in most cases due to the presence of Israeli electronics suites or the ability to carry Israeli munitions). I don't think Canada designs nearly as much of its military hardware to its own specifications as Israel does (both because of STANAGs and it's military's raison d'etre). It's this factor in particular that makes me think Israel would be a good candidate for its own technology tree.
      3- Devs implied the intention to make Israel playable in some sense: Post 5 at SUGGESTION
      "The enemy cannot push a button, if you disable his hand."
      Sergeant Zim, Terran Federation
    • RasczakRough wrote:

      @War-spite for the most part I think that you are correct, but there are 3 significant factors that make me question it and that therefore make the conversation worth having.
      1- UAVs: Israel produces some of the world's most effective UAVs and sells them to other countries. I actually think one of the European doctrine UAVs is Israeli.
      2- Indigenous design and production: Israel has design and production facilities for military hardware that are absolutely incredible for a country with its population and size. Every progression I listed, except the maritime and gunship helicopters, has at least one design that is either designed and built in Israel, built in a foreign country to Israeli design specifications, or a subvariant of a unit type so distinct as to be its own subvariant (in most cases due to the presence of Israeli electronics suites or the ability to carry Israeli munitions). I don't think Canada designs nearly as much of its military hardware to its own specifications as Israel does (both because of STANAGs and it's military's raison d'etre). It's this factor in particular that makes me think Israel would be a good candidate for its own technology tree.
      3- Devs implied the intention to make Israel playable in some sense: Post 5 at SUGGESTION
      Canada actually does have some Canadian designed and built units. The most famous of which was the Avro Arrow, which the US military forced Canada to shut down due to the fact that it could beat anything the US had in the sky at the time. There is also the LAV III, which has been so successful the US Marines among others bought it from Canada and called it the Stryker. It is loosely based on the Mowag piranha, but that even is swiss, so hardly a tech tree in play. Infantry use the c7 rifle, which is markedly superior to the m16, the design it is built from, not to mention the electronics and guidance systems sold TO Israel for their naval AND drone equipment. And we invented the walking barrage for artillery.

      Canada is about 12th worldwide in terms of arms exporters, and in many regions we are even second. So where the Israelis have some great tech, like the Merkava, they are the only ones that use it, wherein Canadian hardware is used globally. A Canadian set of infantry units and most of the armor and support category could be developed that would be common to many countries - but I don't think it is needed. Primarily BECAUSE Canada exports to so many, the euro and western tech pretty much cover things. Now, if I could have a mesh between euro-western tech with western air power, and euro land power... create some canadian corvettes,frigates, and destroyers, and we have ourselves a very nice set. :D
      ----------------------

      Jacopo: Why not just kill them? I'll do it! I'll run up to Paris - bam, bam, bam, bam. I'm back before week's end. We spend the treasure. How is this a bad plan?

      Remember that no one ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb idiot die for his country.
    • @Gorczyk Here's my recommendations based in part on @Dante4670s suggestions:

      Israeli Tech Tree

      Motorized Infantry Transport
      1. Hamer
      2. MDT David
      3. Ze'ev

      Mechanized Infantry Transport
      1. M113 Zelda
      2. Achzarit
      3. Namer

      Paratrooper Transport
      1. Yas'ur

      Special Forces Transport (Sayeret Matkal)
      1. Yas'ur

      Combat Reconnaissance Vehicle

      1. M113 Zelda
      2. Nagmachon
      3. Nakpadon

      Marine Transport
      1. none (the Givati Brigade appears to have been an amphibious formation at one point, but I can't find any information about the equipment it used in support of that mission)

      Amphibious Combat Vehicle
      1. Gillois tank carrier

      Main Battle Tank
      1. Magach
      2. Merkava Mk II
      3. Merkava Mk IVm

      Tank Destroyer
      1. MAPATS (The missile is man-portable and my sense of IDF doctrine at this point is that anti-tank subunits were attached to larger infantry formations)
      2. Tamuz (to demonstrate technological advancement, maybe put it on a M113 Zelda?)
      3. Pereh

      Towed Artillery
      1. K6
      2. M68
      3. M71

      Mobile Artillery
      1. Ro'em
      2. Sholef
      3. Doher

      Multiple Rocket Launcher
      1. Episkopi
      2. Menatetz
      3. LAR-160 (Wikipedia suggests these are carried on an MLRS hull)

      Mobile Anti-Air Vehicle
      1. Hovet
      2. ZSU 23-4
      3. Machbet

      Surface to Air Missile
      1. Drakon
      2. Shenav
      3. SPYDER

      Theatre Defense System
      1. MIM-104 Patriot
      2. Kela David
      3. Chetz 3

      Ground-based Radar
      1. EL/M-2084
      2. Tzeva Adom
      3. Oren Yarok

      Helicopter Gunship
      1. Anafa
      2. Saifan
      3. AH-1 Tzefa

      Attack Helicopter
      1. Lahatut
      2. Peten
      3. Seraph

      ASW Helicopter
      1. Yas'ur
      2. Panther
      3. Yanshuf

      Air Superiority Fighter
      1. Super Mystere
      2. Kfir
      3. Barak

      Stealth Air Superiority Fighter
      1. Adir

      Naval Air Superiority Fighter
      1. Ayit
      2. Kurnass
      3. Ra'am

      Strike Fighter
      1. Tzukit
      2. Nesher
      3. Sufa

      Stealth Strike Fighter
      1. Adir

      Naval Strike Fighter
      1. Ayit
      2. Kurnass
      3. Ra'am

      Naval Patrol Aircraft
      1. PBY Catalina
      2. Arava
      3. Shahaf

      AWACS
      1. Daya
      2. Phalcon
      3. Eitam - G550 airframe

      Naval AWACS
      1. Daya

      Heavy Bomber
      1. Vautour
      2. Kurnass
      3. Ra'am

      Stealth Heavy Bomber
      1. Ra'am

      Corvette
      1. Dabur class
      2. Super Dvora Mk II class
      3. Shaldag class

      Frigate
      1. River class
      2. Sa'ar 2 class
      3. Sa'ar 6 class

      Destroyer
      1. Z class
      2. Sa'ar 4 class
      3. Sa'ar 4.5 Aliyah subclass

      Cruiser
      1. Sa'ar 3 class
      2. Sa'ar 4.5 Hetz subclass
      3. Sa'ar 5

      Aircraft Carrier
      1. none
      2. none
      3. none

      Attack Submarine
      1. T class
      2. Gal class
      3. Dolphin class

      Missile Submarine
      1. Gal class
      2. Dolphin class
      3. Dolphin II class

      ICBM
      1. Jericho II
      2. Shavit
      3. Jericho III

      Cruise Missile
      1. Gabriel Mk IV
      2. Delilah
      3. Popeye Turbo

      Ballistic Missile
      1. Jericho I
      2. EXTRA
      3. LORA
      "The enemy cannot push a button, if you disable his hand."
      Sergeant Zim, Terran Federation
    • I want to suggest 2 ways to differentiate this doctrine and account for the absence of certain kinds of units in the IDF:
      1 That there be no naval aviation units, in exchange for slightly more powerful or survivable land-based air force units.
      2 That there be no amphibious armor or marines or heavy surface naval units (just corvettes, frigates, tier 1 and tier 2 destroyers) in exchange for slightly more powerful or survivable armored units.
      "The enemy cannot push a button, if you disable his hand."
      Sergeant Zim, Terran Federation
    • Dante4670 wrote:

      Oceanhawk wrote:

      And please following a good tree outline that you can find in one of the many done already
      Ummm I think I don't understand what you mean. My tech tree have exactly the same outline as Chinese tech tree. I just couldn't put this on thread like others cuz I got information about over 10.000 characters.

      Oceanhawk wrote:

      From my experience an Israeli tech tree is not do able. They lack any type of fixed wing aircraft, any type of helicopter and naval asset.
      Well It's really hard to find nation which have entire equipment designed, manufactured and assembled by its own. Even Russia use lot of french or even Italy equipment. Probably the only one nation is China and this is because of lack of compatibility with chinese characters/mandarin language. What's more important Israel use mostly special designet verisions/variations of jets etc. like for example F-35I - only the "hull" comes from USA, rest of it is Israeli electronics, radar and weaponry (btw. Israel is the second nation with F-35 squadron following the U.S.)
      Like I said before it's just a concept. I don't expect this will be in game for tomorrow, but who knows maybe someday ;)
      There are plenty of tree options

      The UK & France are capable of fielding their own trees as well is a southern powers tree (Brazil, South Africa, India)

      Israel have no jets, so cant make a tree with no ships, jets or helicotpers from the nation.









      Use Helicopters, Special forces or Stealth. Use your head to play - not the missile button. - Germanico
    • @'Oceanhawk , reading a book about Israeli military right now, and would have to disagree with you Ocean.

      List of countries which manufacture fighter jets ( quora.com/Which-countries-manufacture-fighter-jets )

      USA
      RUSSIA
      FRANCE
      CHINA
      SWEDEN
      INDIA
      SOUTH KOREA
      GERMANY
      UK
      ITALY
      SPAIN
      PAKISTAN

      If the tech trees would only include the equipment which is actually manufactured by a nation inside the borders of a nation, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Turkey, and so many other playable nations would not have aircraft in their tech tree.

      And dont get me started on heavy equipment.

      Tech tree would have to be developed with "what is a current and historical type of force the country had been using, and not manufacturing capability.

      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_…_of_the_Israeli_Air_Force


      As for the battle tanks (quote)

      "There are three different types of tank-producing countries.
      There are the 6 countries who have the capability to build tanks, but only choose to modify and upgrade (Czech Republic, South Africa, Ukraine, Sweden, Brazil and Serbia).
      Two countries are in the prototype phase of their first homemade tank. Turkey with the Altay and Croatia with the M-95 Degman.
      A further 15 countries have produced or are producing third generation tanks.
      I will list them with one of their most well known tank:
      India - Arjun
      Pakistan - Al-Khalid
      China - Type 99
      UK - Challenger 2
      Russia - T-90
      South Korea - K1A1
      Italy - Ariete
      Poland - PT-91 Twardy
      Iran - Zulfiqar
      France - AMX Leclerc
      Japan - Type 90
      Israel - Merkava
      USA - M1 Abrams
      Germany - Leopard
      So all in all there are 22 countries which have the capabilities to make modern tanks."
      quora.com/Which-countries-make…rastructure-to-make-tanks



      Oceanhawk wrote:

      Dante4670 wrote:

      Israel have no jets, so cant make a tree with no ships, jets or helicotpers from the nation.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Taakar: (p.s. dont take this personal) ().

    • Oceanhawk wrote:

      tinydragon303 wrote:

      In an admin sponsored RP moderators can 'hack' it to make Israel playable. Like our cold war RP. Taakar was Israel. It's fun! If you have a discord you should ask @Oceanhawk if you can spectate.
      We are referring to skins here Tiny :P
      I know that, someone just asked if it would be even worth it to make them since it's not even playable. XD
    • Dante4670 wrote:

      War-spite wrote:

      Check me if i am wrong, but Israel is not a playable country right? And does anyone use Israeli tech outside of Israel? I am not criticizing the tech or your vision of it, but it just seems even less relevant than say a Canadian tech tree.
      Yes. Israel is one of the world's major exporters of military equipment, accounting for 10% of the world total in 2007. For example Canadians buy stuff from israel, most countries buy. Devs says that they are working on 100 players map, so I expect Israel, Taiwan, Syria and all of those smaller countries being playable ;)
      @RasczakRough This is copy and paste of all my work, but I appreciate updating it a bit. Basically the missiles systems and heavies.

      Well, I think we can't use Sa'ar 3 and other small patrol boats as cruisers - that's ridiculous. Also you can't put tanks like Merkava Mark II higher in tech tree then Magach 7C because the old Merkava Mark II came out of use - so I don't agree at all. Also Sabra must be there for sure. Speaking about spec-ops Matkal is more like anti terrorist unit so this is why i put there Maglan.

      Timsach was used many times for amphibious assault, It is in my PDF file, but I couldn't find it on wiki :)

      Israel put much more armore probably on everything (even on soldiers, lol), so this is why I think that they should have as doctrine more HP then others. Please read about (for example) Merkava's engine and why it is placed where it is. High damage jets (low HP), low damage tanks (high HP) this is what I exacly mean.

      And finally I don't like what you did with arty unit, you throw Israel unit away and put there USA thing :/

      @Oceanhawk Speaking about jets I can try use 100% Israeli jets which were never used prototipes but I think it's less related to reality then special versions of F-35 for example.

      PS: I placed names of brigades just to make it easy for me to find appropriate graphics.
      Chap, Israel is not even close to being suitable to having its own skins. It exports loads, but those are small stuff,

      Israel has 0 in terms of naval production, same applies for aircraft. Most of their stuff is still imported from USA.

      You could fill very very little on this tree,









      Use Helicopters, Special forces or Stealth. Use your head to play - not the missile button. - Germanico
    • @Oceanhawk I may disagree with him about what should be on the tree, but I think that @Dante4670 is on to something here. You will notice that all of the non-helicopter aircraft progressions have either an indigenously produced aircraft designed from scratch or a subvariant of an exported aircraft so heavily modified as to be worth identifying it as a subvariant (F-15I vs F-15E) due to avionics upgrades, modifications for operations in the Israeli climate (mainly desert), and the ability to cary Israeli munitions. They are the Adir (F-35I), Ra'am (F-15I), Ayit (A-4N), Tzukit (refurbished Fouga Magister with new power plant), and Sufa (F-16I), as well as the indigenously produced Kfir, Nesher, Arava, Shahaf, Phalcon, and Eitam, which looks like a decently long list to me. In terms of naval production, Israel has substantive diplomatic and military relationships with Germany and the US, whose shipyards build major Israeli surface and submarine combatants to Israeli designs. The hardware is Israeli-designed and Israeli-operated; they just lack the production facilities to build large vessels.

      Dante4670 wrote:

      Timsach was used many times for amphibious assault, It is in my PDF file, but I couldn't find it on wiki
      My understanding is that the IDF has only ever conducted 1 substantive operation requiring the crossing of a major water obstacle, the Suez crossing of '73, and that was really more of a river crossing. I think that it wasn't really an amphibious operation because artillery and air support came from land-based units, the water was spanned with bridges to transport support vehicles to the front, and there was no blue-water maritime capability needed for the attack. It's never done a real amphibious operation along the lines of Operation Overlord or Operation Rosario. What "many times" are you talking about?

      Dante4670 wrote:

      Well, I think we can't use Sa'ar 3 and other small patrol boats as cruisers - that's ridiculous.
      I agree that it's ridiculous; thats why I suggested what I did about armor and higher level naval units. However, that does seem to be the role those vessels filled. Whether to include them or not in the Israeli doctrine is a developer decision distinct from whether to include an Israeli doctrine or not. Its our place to provide options, not to make decisions.


      Dante4670 wrote:

      Speaking about spec-ops Matkal is more like anti terrorist unit so this is why i put there Maglan.
      All the sources I've found on the unit state very clearly that its primary purpose is intelligence gathering (which incidentally is why its directly subordinate to MATKAL, the high command). In the absence of wars requiring the gathering of intelligence, it's taken on a counter-terror role, much like Spetznaz and the SAS. It also happens to be far more well-known than Maglan.

      Dante4670 wrote:

      Israel put much more armore probably on everything (even on soldiers, lol), so this is why I think that they should have as doctrine more HP then others. Please read about (for example) Merkava's engine and why it is placed where it is. High damage jets (low HP), low damage tanks (high HP) this is what I exacly mean.
      On a tactical level, this is correct, and you're absolutely right that the Merkava engine placement is a good example of this. However, this game isn't about the tactical situation- it's about the strategic situation. Looking at this strategically, manpower has always been a particularly critical resource of the IDF because such a high percentage of the country's population is militarized. Wikipedia suggests that approximately 620,000 individuals out of a total population of 8.7 million serve in the IDF either in a full-time or reserve capacity. That's 7% of a very small population. Casualties hurt the IDF more than they hurt most other militaries because the IDF and Israel are so much smaller than neighboring militaries and countries. To simulate the disproportionately high impact of casualties on the population of the country, infantry and armored units should have lower HP than average.

      Dante4670 wrote:

      PS: I placed names of brigades just to make it easy for me to find appropriate graphics.
      Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think infantry units wear berets when engaged in combat operations.
      "The enemy cannot push a button, if you disable his hand."
      Sergeant Zim, Terran Federation
    • Please.. Find me 3 aircraft carriers from Israel
      Find me 3 Crusiers, Destroyers, Frigates or Corvettes
      Find me just 1 of those and I will be impressed

      Find me 3 classes of Ballistic missile submarines
      Or 3 classes of attack submarines






      There nations out there that are actually worth the attention of a tech tree, this here is just not.









      Use Helicopters, Special forces or Stealth. Use your head to play - not the missile button. - Germanico
    • Attack Submarine
      1. Gal class
      2. Dolphin class
      3. Dolphin II class
      All the SSK and SSI classes listed here are Israeli designs operated solely by the Israeli Navy. Are you suggesting that a country's suitability for its tech tree should be determined by manufacturing capability and not the kinds of forces it operates?

      Corvette
      1. Dabur class - vessels of this class have been built both by Swiftships and IAI Ramta, an Israeli company. The Israeli Navy operates them.
      2. Super Dvora Mk II class are also built by IAI
      3. Shaldag class are built by Israel Shipyards Ltd
      These are all designed for the IDF, operated by the IDF, and built by Israeli (or in some examples of one case, American) shipyards
      "The enemy cannot push a button, if you disable his hand."
      Sergeant Zim, Terran Federation

      The post was edited 1 time, last by RasczakRough ().