AWACS,submarines

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    • No, if someone were to fly over my territory obviously collecting information that would almost be worse me than flying over armed aircraft. Because the only reason they would fly something like that over your country would be to direct an attack. If your idea was implemented that is what I would use it for. Fly over every inch of their territory and see where all the forces are, plan out what the biggest targets are, then launch my attack.

      As for the second idea, that also wouldn't be great since your ship is obviously going to report that it's under attack by a submarine since it cant see the attacker and torpedoes are coming at it. Unless maybe it sinks on the first strike.

    • @tinydragon303 your point regarding AWACS is not true anymore as a blanket statement. The Treaty on Open Skies allows for observed, unobstructed photoreconnaissance flights by parties over other parties. Clearly it's not a universal thing, but most of the countries out there with the capability to fight a major war (with the notable exceptions of India and China) are parties to it. However, I think you make a good point about what it'd be used for in Conflict of Nations. Maybe to counter that idea, the aircraft that do it shouldn't have radar?

      Furthermore, I completely agree with you about the submarine point. My understanding is that an attack not only may sink a target, it also will generate noise which can be localized to a point on the map, identifying the submarine's location. If anything, @Antony N, I think that a submarine that has attacked another unit using torpedoes or missiles should be de-stealthed for a period between 15 minutes and an hour.
      "The enemy cannot push a button, if you disable his hand."
      Sergeant Zim, Terran Federation

    • Antony N wrote:

      It would aid realism were AWACS able to fly over foreign territory without starting a war as they are not armed etc.

      Submarines being stealthy might be allowed to attack enemy vessels without starting a war; unless they are discovered by AWACS or similar ?
      This is extremely silly, I think Tiny has summed it up very well :)
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu

    • Just a follow up to tiny and ocean, this is not only not practical in game terms, but also not applicable in the real world. The open skies treaty has very specific limitations on what kinds of surveillance can be done and by what equipment. An AWACS is not on the allowed list. Most nato nations use a SAMSON pod strapped onto the surveillance aircraft. To compare an AWACS to the open skies, is like saying, that the the french islands of st pierre and miquelon can have their 200 mile exclusive economic zone extend into grocery stores in halifax.
      ----------------------

      Jacopo: Why not just kill them? I'll do it! I'll run up to Paris - bam, bam, bam, bam. I'm back before week's end. We spend the treasure. How is this a bad plan?

      Remember that no one ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb idiot die for his country.

    • Oceanhawk wrote:

      Antony N wrote:

      It would aid realism were AWACS able to fly over foreign territory without starting a war as they are not armed etc.

      Submarines being stealthy might be allowed to attack enemy vessels without starting a war; unless they are discovered by AWACS or similar ?
      This is extremely silly, I think Tiny has summed it up very well :)
      Far from extremely silly. You're just reluctant to embrace reality.

      I suppose in your world if a spy satellite flies over a foreign country it starts a war? :(

      Omly the same with a high-flying awacs.

      During both world wars German submarines (undetected at the time) sank vessels of neutral nations. Did it provoke a war? No!!

      Enough said.

    • Most of CoN happens through the Cold War.

      Pretty sure we have several example of perfectly civilian vessels that were shot down by USSR airforce because they were spying.
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.

    • RasczakRough wrote:

      @tinydragon303 your point regarding AWACS is not true anymore as a blanket statement. The Treaty on Open Skies allows for observed, unobstructed photoreconnaissance flights by parties over other parties. Clearly it's not a universal thing, but most of the countries out there with the capability to fight a major war (with the notable exceptions of India and China) are parties to it. However, I think you make a good point about what it'd be used for in Conflict of Nations. Maybe to counter that idea, the aircraft that do it shouldn't have radar?

      Furthermore, I completely agree with you about the submarine point. My understanding is that an attack not only may sink a target, it also will generate noise which can be localized to a point on the map, identifying the submarine's location. If anything, @Antony N, I think that a submarine that has attacked another unit using torpedoes or missiles should be de-stealthed for a period between 15 minutes and an hour.
      I have a three major concerns over this statement.
      First, If the AWACS doesn't radar, what can it really, productively, do?
      Second, in CON a submarine will not likely sink a ship in one strike (only CMs and Ballistic missiles might do it), unless it is already at low health.
      Third, the de-stealthing is not realistic in any way. They might know it's a sub, but they should not know it's nation, type, or hp without sonar.

      This raises another concern with subs that I will suggest to do something with right now. When subs attack with a torpedo in real life, they can sink even a aircraft carrier (not likely, considering the escort with any aircraft carrier now). CON gives this rigid system of hp and calculation of damage, but if the aim is right, an undamaged surface vessel can be sunk, first shot. I think subs deserve a small nerf, but also this low chance activation (5% maybe?) of an automatic sinking. In that case, the sunk vessel wouldn't have time to relay information back, and in the news, it would state something like 'Northern Atlantic Ocean: 17th Cruiser (United States) has been sunk by a mysterious object'.

      Now onto another suggestion that relates to all this secrecy thing. You know how you get unknown radar contacts with the nation on them? I think that unless the flag on the transports it that big, you should only know that it's there, and nothing else, until you get closer.


      Opulon wrote:

      Most of CoN happens through the Cold War.

      Pretty sure we have several example of perfectly civilian vessels that were shot down by USSR airforce because they were spying.
      No, CON is post-cold war. 1990 and the Cold War was already ending.

      And the USSR was rightly afraid of potential reconnaissance on their nation as nuclear war was on everyone's minds several times over the course of the Cold War.

    • i'm pretty sure that the Game spans from the 60's into the 2000's, at least in terms of general gameplay. Otherwise, the technological tree would start from the actual tier 3 and go into more experimental units after.

      There are also several other subtle clues, like the logo


      gyazo.com/1f49114428b1dc233dfde09946ad7bc8


      Which uses a very nice array of imagery and symbols that echo to the Cold War ( The opposition between blue and red, the use of a latin "cyrillic" font, the "led" theme from command centers)

      And... another style, the very description of the website, which goes :

      Conflict of Nations: Modern War is a military grand strategy game set in the late 20th and early 21st century.
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.

    • B-17 wrote:

      First, If the AWACS doesn't radar, what can it really, productively, do?
      I'm not suggesting AWACS be able to do the overflight- if we were to implement it realistically (which doesn't appear likely), I think a transport aircraft would be the most realistic option, as it has no radar. In fact, several parties to the Open Skies Treaty in real life use modified passenger and cargo transport planes for their flights. In fact, if you can find a willing participant, you can recreate the treaty's impacts right now, by reciprocally giving each other right-of-way diplomatic status, and flying troops over each others countries.

      B-17 wrote:

      Third, the de-stealthing is not realistic in any way.
      Here's my understanding of what happens when a torpedo is fired (I am a civilian with no military experience so I am not sure it is correct, but this is what I understand to be the case): before a torpedo is launched, the torpedo tube's outer door must be opened. The opening of the door creates a mechanical noise that's detectable to anybody within torpedo range and a decent passive sonar suite. The noise when detected by sonar equipment will also give a range (distance) and bearing (angle) to the target. That door opening noise plus reactor coolant pump sounds (in the case of a nuclear boat) or screw sounds from the boat and the just-launched torpedo can allow other boats or surface ships in the area to determine exactly what kind of submarine fired what kind of torpedo from where (relative to the detecting vessel). The geopolitical situation makes it obvious whose submarine just launched the torpedo fairly quickly. I can't quite imagine a case where a submarine would detect a torpedo launch and not understand which nation attacked it that makes sense in the context of CoN, as attacking another unit automatically causes a declaration of war.
      In essence, the stealthy modern attack submarine (SSI/SSK/SSN) loses all of its stealth characteristics when it shoots a torpedo at a target in real life until it puts distance between itself and the point at which it fired the torpedo.
      The only thing about a submarine in this game that I haven't argued can be determined using these methods is its HP remaining/damage status, but I don't understand why a damaged boat would seek out combat, so that seems kind of like a moot point to me.

      B-17 wrote:

      if the aim is right, an undamaged surface vessel can be sunk, first shot.
      When was the last time this happened? There haven't been any submarine-ship attacks since the Falklands War, and I don't know the last time there was a one-shot sinking of a major surface combatant (but it doesn't appear to have been in that conflict). This puts the last occurrence of this event well before the time period CoN aims to simulate.
      "The enemy cannot push a button, if you disable his hand."
      Sergeant Zim, Terran Federation

    • Antony N wrote:

      Oceanhawk wrote:

      Antony N wrote:

      It would aid realism were AWACS able to fly over foreign territory without starting a war as they are not armed etc.

      Submarines being stealthy might be allowed to attack enemy vessels without starting a war; unless they are discovered by AWACS or similar ?
      This is extremely silly, I think Tiny has summed it up very well :)
      Far from extremely silly. You're just reluctant to embrace reality.
      I suppose in your world if a spy satellite flies over a foreign country it starts a war? :(

      Omly the same with a high-flying awacs.

      During both world wars German submarines (undetected at the time) sank vessels of neutral nations. Did it provoke a war? No!!

      Enough said.
      If an AWACS fly over my country Id shoot it down, not start a war. Again do bare in mind this is a war game with one goal.. defeat all those who oppose you.


      That was 1940, today if a submarine sunk a vessel how do you think the US would respond? Can you really tell me they would let 6000 American Citizens die, and go unpunished?


      Spy satellites fly over foreign countries all the time, you do know countries cannot claim space as sovereign airspace? (Not to mention thankfully satellites are not in the game)


      UAVs can fly over any not declare war, which I agree with. (Level 6)

      Enough Said
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu