Air Superiority and Strike Fighters improvement suggestions

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    • I Been busy last two day lads, back now. But I really do think that this US Skins are not right. It really bothers me that the F-16 and F-15 are swapped around. Really think outta be fixed around tbh
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu
    • Oceanhawk wrote:

      I Been busy last two day lads, back now. But I really do think that this US Skins are not right. It really bothers me that the F-16 and F-15 are swapped around. Really think outta be fixed around tbh
      Well according to the latest plans of the USAF the F-15 is going to be scrapped in favor of the F-16. So now F-16 will do the job of the F-22 and F-35.

      Apparently since the F-35 is entering full scale production and will be in service for the air force by the end of the decade. The USAF is considering retiring the F-15C/D and replacing them with the spare F-16s which are being replaced by F-35s. I guess the logic behind it is that Lockheed Martin continues to support the F-16 Series with upgrades and support, whilst Boeing abandoned the F-15C/D in favor of the F-15E strike Eagle series. So it would be cheaper in the long run to support the F-16's over the F-15's. I agree that the F-15C/D should be retired but not by the F-16. It should be retired by the F-15SE. I guess all that money the Air Force is pumping into the F-35 programme and the upcoming B-21 Stealth Bomber is leaving them short of cash for anything else.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Lord Aodhan ().

    • Lord Aodhan wrote:

      Oceanhawk wrote:

      I Been busy last two day lads, back now. But I really do think that this US Skins are not right. It really bothers me that the F-16 and F-15 are swapped around. Really think outta be fixed around tbh
      Well according to the latest plans of the USAF the F-15 is going to be scrapped in favor of the F-16. So now F-16 will do the job of the F-22 and F-35.
      Apparently since the F-35 is entering full scale production and will be in service for the air force by the end of the decade. The USAF is considering retiring the F-15C/D and replacing them with the spare F-16s which are being replaced by F-35s. I guess the logic behind it is that Lockheed Martin continues to support the F-16 Series with upgrades and support, whilst Boeing abandoned the F-15C/D in favor of the F-15E strike Eagle series. So it would be cheaper in the long run to support the F-16's over the F-15's. I agree that the F-15C/D should be retired but not by the F-16. It should be retired by the F-15SE. I guess all that money the Air Force is pumping into the F-35 programme and the upcoming B-21 Stealth Bomber is leaving them short of cash for anything else.
      The f-16 wont fill the air supremacy shoes the way the F-15 does and has! These damn things can fly on one wing, and those 2 Israeli pilots wouldnt have lived to tell the tale had they been in anything other than the F-15. Again I dont believe any F-15s have been lost to enemy fire. Couldnt say the same for the F-16. The F-15 is a much superior air to air aircraft. I would replace the F-15 C/D with newer F-15s, simple as.
      The air force had the F-15s and F-16 in service with the high low mix, they wanted one big air superiority fighter with the two big engines... and the lighter single engine aircraft.

      Yea that B-21 Program will be pricey, I wonder if it will be worth it.
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu
    • Oceanhawk wrote:

      I Been busy last two day lads, back now. But I really do think that this US Skins are not right.
      I've changed the front page in line with the April Hot Fix Update. I've added your bit to the start as part of new suggestions for improving fighter tech tree. The F-15C definitively needs to leave the Strike Fighter tech tree, it just doesn't fit.
    • Guys - we will not swap the F15 out - remember most players don't know the difference and would be rather surprised seeing the F15 jumping back and forth between Air Sup and Strike.

      Please remember we aren't a sim and in reality the roles of fighter planes have been ever more multi role.

      //G
      "Going to war without France is like going hunting without an accordion." Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf
    • Germanico wrote:

      Guys - we will not swap the F15 out - remember most players don't know the difference and would be rather surprised seeing the F15 jumping back and forth between Air Sup and Strike.

      Please remember we aren't a sim and in reality the roles of fighter planes have been ever more multi role.

      //G

      Would it really be a big change to swap around the F-15 and the F-16. I dont see why most players would care if they dont know the difference.
      Nor would it be jumping back and forth, rather just jumping forth.... :/

      I do appreciate the response though, XD
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu
    • Germanico wrote:

      Guys - we will not swap the F15 out - remember most players don't know the difference and would be rather surprised seeing the F15 jumping back and forth between Air Sup and Strike.

      Please remember we aren't a sim and in reality the roles of fighter planes have been ever more multi role.
      Unlike Oceanhawk. I'm not suggesting you swap them around. The F-16's work in the air superiority role especially with the other tech trees being Lightweight agile fighter's like the MiG-29 and Eurofighter Typhoon. Also the individual animations for the F-16 have already been done.

      But the F-15C does need to be removed (It's currently the Tier 2 strike aircraft) , it's not multi-role or even a strike aircraft, it's purely for long range air-air combat it's never been upgraded to be more multi-role as most aircraft have nor will it ever will be, it's as multi-role as the MiG-31 Interceptor (Which ins't multi-role). That's why I suggested demoting the F-15E to tier 2 strike fighter and introducing the F-15SA as the Tier 3. The F-15E could use the same animation design the F-15C used (They look similar externally) and the F-15SA will just adopt the F-15E animation. But the F-15C needs to be removed from the Strike tech tree (not suggesting putting it in the the air superiority tree as Oceanhawk wants). All that would need to happen would literally be a picture change on the unit statistic pop-up and a minor name change.

      This would both be realistic and correct. I saw that the Tu-22M Bomber for the Eastern Doctrine had the picture of a MiG-31 Interceptor for a while so I know it's possible. Also it would be good that the player's that don't know about Modern Military hardware got some education out of this. The F-15C was a heavyweight Air-Superiority Fighter. The F-15E was developed from the F-15A as a strike aircraft to replace the F-4 and F-111. The F-15C and F-15E variants were designed at the same time (Early 80's) to fulfill different roles in the USAF the F-15E was not developed from the F-15C.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Lord Aodhan ().

    • My point was to put the F-15 as the air superority from the start lol

      Not on about the Strike Eagle, but the C version for tier 2 air Sup and make the level 3 be the F-15 Silent Eagle or even the "F-15 2040"

      Just look at this thing....



      16Missiles... the F-35 Is doing well to carry 4


      Good job lads
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu
    • Germanico wrote:

      Please remember we aren't a sim and in reality the roles of fighter planes have been ever more multi role.
      Sorry this is separate from my previous point. But could air superiority fighters become multi-role fighters? and there be a separate category for Air-Superiority like Interceptor?

      All the fighter's currently in the Air Superiority category are multi-role so couldn't there be a possibility of renaming the class and modding the stats for the tier 3 air superiority fighters a little so their ground attack is minorly improved (like 1.5+) and air-air toned down a little (-1.5) (helicopter damage stays the same). To balance it out with the new Interceptor class. Tier 1 and 2 stats stay the same.

      I've thought about this and there isn't a anti-stealth fighter currently. But Interceptors have very powerful radar's which are like mini AWACs. Interceptors will have powerful radars and fighter attack stats (but poor defense). No ground or ship attack and weak anti-helicopter ability. They will be purely anti-air fighters. They are also the fastest air units in the game allowing them to intercept enemy aircraft.
      I've even thought of the fighters for each doctrine. They get anti-Stealth for the second tier aircraft. They won't be able to be researched until after Tier 2 Fighters are researched. But are available from Lv.2 Air Bases with a Lv.1 Secret Weapons Lab. HP will be the same as Fighter Jets.

      Western:
      F-104 Delta Dart
      F-15C Eagle (Oceanhawk maybe happy or not?)

      Eastern:
      MiG-25 Foxbat
      MiG-31 Foxhound

      European:
      English Electric Lighting
      Tornado ADV


      Upgrades:
      Tier 1 Interceptor (Lv.1)
      (Jet atk:14 Jet Def:7 / Helo atk:6 Helo Def:6 /Speed:14) Radar 75.

      (Lv.2) Advanced Sensor Array (Radar Range increased to 90)

      Tier 2 Interceptor (Anti-Stealth Ability) (Lv.3)
      (Jet atk:17 Jet Def:9 / Helo atk:8 Helo Def:8 / Speed:15)

      (Lv.4) Fuel Improvement (900 Range like the other fighters)

      (Lv.5) Cruise Missile Interceptor (Missile attack 5)

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Lord Aodhan ().

    • Lord Aodhan wrote:

      Germanico wrote:

      Please remember we aren't a sim and in reality the roles of fighter planes have been ever more multi role.
      Sorry this is separate from my previous point. But could air superiority fighters become multi-role fighters? and there be a separate category for Air-Superiority like Interceptor?
      All the fighter's currently in the Air Superiority category are multi-role so couldn't there be a possibility of renaming the class and modding the stats for the tier 3 air superiority fighters a little so their ground attack is minorly improved (like 1.5+) and air-air toned down a little (-1.5) (helicopter damage stays the same). To balance it out with the new Interceptor class. Tier 1 and 2 stats stay the same.

      I've thought about this and there isn't a anti-stealth fighter currently. But Interceptors have very powerful radar's which are like mini AWACs. Interceptors will have powerful radars and fighter attack stats (but poor defense). No ground or ship attack and weak anti-helicopter ability. They will be purely anti-air fighters. They are also the fastest air units in the game allowing them to intercept enemy aircraft.
      I've even thought of the fighters for each doctrine. They get anti-Stealth for the second tier aircraft. They won't be able to be researched until after Tier 2 Fighters are researched. But are available from Lv.2 Air Bases.

      Western:
      F-104 Delta Dart
      F-15C Eagle (Oceanhawk will be happy)

      Eastern:
      MiG-25 Foxbat
      MiG-31 Foxhound

      European:
      English Electric Lighting
      Tornado ADV


      Upgrades:
      Tier 1 Interceptor (Lv.1)
      (Jet atk:14 Jet Def:7 / Helo atk:6 Helo Def:6 /Speed:14)

      (Lv.2) Advanced Sensor Array (Radar Range 90)

      Tier 2 Interceptor (Anti-Stealth Ability) (Lv.3)
      (Jet atk:17 Jet Def:9 / Helo atk:8 Helo Def:8 / Speed:15)

      (Lv.4) Fuel Improvement (900 Range)

      (Lv.5) Cruise Missile Interceptor (Missile attack 5)
      I hate this idea sorry dude :/

      They made the F-15E from an air superiority fighter.
      The Typhoon has close to 0 Strike abilities, I see it as a good air superiority fighter. The F-14 Tomcat always had its flaws with the air to
      ground role. Point is, Id rather see them separate


      I Really dont like this idea, keep them separate. Id still rather see the tree look more like

      Air superiority F-5 - F-15C - F-15 SE/2040

      Strike - F-111, F-16 Block C - F-16 Viper ( Or the F-15E, but I think we have enough Eagles up above XD)



      The tornado will feature in the strike fighter already, maybe one of the Swedish jets not the Gripen, could replace the Tornado. In your tree there.


      I still would rather see the air Supremacy fighter get a boast in speed and range over the Strike fighter.
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu
    • Oceanhawk wrote:

      The Typhoon has close to 0 Strike abilities, I see it as a good air superiority fighter. The F-14 Tomcat always had its flaws with the air to
      ground role.
      The Typhoon does have strike capabilities, well at least the RAF versions do, they were used in Bombing missions in Libya (2011), by 2018 they will be able to use all the ground to air armament that the Tornado IDS tactical bombers use. F-14 Tomcat I believe is in the Naval air superiority fighters were it belongs.

      Oceanhawk wrote:

      The tornado will feature in the strike fighter already,
      The Tornado IDS is a strike fighter. But the Tornado ADV (Air Defense Variant) is an interceptor that was used by Saudi Arabia, UK and Italy. It was the European equivalent of the MiG-31 Foxhound. It was faster, had incredible range and had a very powerful air radar. To put into Perspective the Tornado IDS is like the F-15E and the Tornado ADV is like the F-15C.

      Oceanhawk wrote:

      Air superiority F-5 - F-15C - F-15 SE/2040
      The F-15SE is a stealth multirole Fighter, it's like putting the F-35 or PAK-DA in this category doesn't make sense. Besides I stated that there should be separate catergories. 1 Dedicated to strike with some air defense, 1 Multirole fighter with better air-air capabilities and limited Ground attack and 1 Air-Superiority/Interceptor category purely for Air-Air and Anti-Stealth.

      Not sure what your getting at? I'm actually backing both your view and Germanico's
      They are separated into 3 Categories as opposed to 2.

      The Multi-role Fighter Jet is like the Motor Rifleman. It's cheap and quick to build with overall good stats but is much better against infantry (Jets) than it is against Armour (Ground units)

      The Strike Fighter is like the Mechanized Infantry. It requires a upgraded airbase. Is affordable like the Motor Rifleman (Multi-Role Fighter) but it better against and supporting Armour units than it is against Infantry (like the strike fighter is good against grounds units which it also supports)

      The Air Superiority (Interceptor) Fighter is like the Airborne Infantry. It is also requires low level airbase and army base (secret weapons lab). It has terrible anti Armour stats (anti ground), but really good anti infantry stats (anti-air).

      Obviously Marines in this analogy are naval jets and special forces, are stealth fighters.

      But just explaining how they balance out.
    • Lord Aodhan wrote:

      Oceanhawk wrote:

      The Typhoon has close to 0 Strike abilities, I see it as a good air superiority fighter. The F-14 Tomcat always had its flaws with the air to
      ground role.
      The Typhoon does have strike capabilities, well at least the RAF versions do, they were used in Bombing missions in Libya (2011), by 2018 they will be able to use all the ground to air armament that the Tornado IDS tactical bombers use. F-14 Tomcat I believe is in the Naval air superiority fighters were it belongs.

      Oceanhawk wrote:

      The tornado will feature in the strike fighter already,
      The Tornado IDS is a strike fighter. But the Tornado ADV (Air Defense Variant) is an interceptor that was used by Saudi Arabia, UK and Italy. It was the European equivalent of the MiG-31 Foxhound. It was faster, had incredible range and had a very powerful air radar. To put into Perspective the Tornado IDS is like the F-15E and the Tornado ADV is like the F-15C.

      Oceanhawk wrote:

      Air superiority F-5 - F-15C - F-15 SE/2040
      The F-15SE is a stealth multirole Fighter, it's like putting the F-35 or PAK-DA in this category doesn't make sense. Besides I stated that there should be separate catergories. 1 Dedicated to strike with some air defense, 1 Multirole fighter with better air-air capabilities and limited Ground attack and 1 Air-Superiority/Interceptor category purely for Air-Air and Anti-Stealth.
      Not sure what your getting at? I'm actually backing both your view and Germanico's
      They are separated into 3 Categories as opposed to 2.

      The Multi-role Fighter Jet is like the Motor Rifleman. It's cheap and quick to build with overall good stats but is much better against infantry (Jets) than it is against Armour (Ground units)

      The Strike Fighter is like the Mechanized Infantry. It requires a upgraded airbase. Is affordable like the Motor Rifleman (Multi-Role Fighter) but it better against and supporting Armour units than it is against Infantry (like the strike fighter is good against grounds units which it also supports)

      The Air Superiority (Interceptor) Fighter is like the Airborne Infantry. It is also requires low level airbase and army base (secret weapons lab). It has terrible anti Armour stats (anti ground), but really good anti infantry stats (anti-air).

      Obviously Marines in this analogy are naval jets and special forces, are stealth fighters.

      But just explaining how they balance out.
      OR 2040.


      Yea now Im soo lost, Im just saying keep Air supremacy and Strike Fighters in seperate catogories. Make F-15C and F-15 2040 the air supremacy fighter as well as make the F-16s the strike aircraft.


      The typhoon is useless at the air to ground role. It has its critics overall, but I respect its air - air role.
      Anyway,
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu
    • Oceanhawk wrote:

      Yea now Im soo lost, Im just saying keep Air supremacy and Strike Fighters in seperate catogories. Make F-15C and F-15 2040 the air supremacy fighter as well as make the F-16s the strike aircraft.
      I did keep them in separate categories but I introduced. Just changed one and added another. All fighters currently in the air-superiority class will be considered Multi-role fighters, which they all are including the Typhoon (post 2018). The strike fighter class will remain the same. But the new Air-superiority will include Interceptors and pure air-superiority fighters like the MiG-31 and F-15C.

      The Multirole class has the same stats expect for the tier 3 aircraft (Viper, Typhoon, MiG-35) which have their air air stats slightly toned down and air to ground stats slightly boosted. They will still be on average much better in air air and weaker in Ground attack than the strike fighter. The Air Superiority fighter will have very good atk stats but poor defense stats, it will be quicker and have a more powerful radar, with an anti-stealth ability for tier 2 air superiority fighters. It's just very useful at intercepting enemy aircraft and countering Stealth aircraft. But has zero air to ground capability.

      Much like the F-15C has powerful radar and is very fast but is not multi-role in any way. Same for the MiG-31 Foxhound and Tornado ADV. But I doubt breaking down the fighter classes into 3 will actually happen, hence why this suggestion is not on the thread front page.
    • Lord Aodhan wrote:

      Oceanhawk wrote:

      Yea now Im soo lost, Im just saying keep Air supremacy and Strike Fighters in seperate catogories. Make F-15C and F-15 2040 the air supremacy fighter as well as make the F-16s the strike aircraft.
      I did keep them in separate categories but I introduced. Just changed one and added another. All fighters currently in the air-superiority class will be considered Multi-role fighters, which they all are including the Typhoon (post 2018). The strike fighter class will remain the same. But the new Air-superiority will include Interceptors and pure air-superiority fighters like the MiG-31 and F-15C.
      The Multirole class has the same stats expect for the tier 3 aircraft (Viper, Typhoon, MiG-35) which have their air air stats slightly toned down and air to ground stats slightly boosted. They will still be on average much better in air air and weaker in Ground attack than the strike fighter. The Air Superiority fighter will have very good atk stats but poor defense stats, it will be quicker and have a more powerful radar, with an anti-stealth ability for tier 2 air superiority fighters. It's just very useful at intercepting enemy aircraft and countering Stealth aircraft. But has zero air to ground capability.

      Much like the F-15C has powerful radar and is very fast but is not multi-role in any way. Same for the MiG-31 Foxhound and Tornado ADV. But I doubt breaking down the fighter classes into 3 will actually happen, hence why this suggestion is not on the thread front page.
      Yea you have completely lost me....
      :/
      The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
      - Thomas Jefferson

      Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
      - Milton Friedman

      Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster.
      - Sun Tzu
    • Oceanhawk wrote:

      Yea you have completely lost me....
      I am agreeing with you the F-15C should be in air-superiority class.

      But the Fighters currently in the Air Superiority class should become the Multirole fighter class instead

      What I am saying is that the all fighters in the Air Superiority class will be transferred to a new multirole class. They will literally be the same as before research costs, production requirement and stats largely (A minor buff to the ground attack and deduction from the air-air for the tier 3 fighter)

      The F-15C along with other pure-breed (Not multi-role) airsuperiority fighters and Interceptors will fillout the Air Superiority class with new stats. No ground attack ability what so ever. They will be faster than the Multi-role Fighter and can have anti-stealth ability to counter stealth fighters.

      So instead of having two separate classes their is now 3. The Air Superiority class increased speed allows them to intercept enemy aircraft. Their anti-stealth allows them to counter stealth aircraft in sufficient numbers (Like 2v1). They also have a slightly increased Radar range to detect enemy aircraft first and can be given a anti-cruise missile ability to intercept tier 2 Cruise Missiles (They can intercept them much like a fighter attacks another fighter. Not quite like the way SAMs work in the game to take down missiles. Air Superiority fighters will have to manually attack the Cruise Missiles (And cruise missiles only).

      They kind of fill a middle gap between Multi-role fighters and Stealth Air superiority fighters in the air to air role. But have abilities which make them unique as opposed to a simple bridge.
    • Guys, sorry to disappoint you, but there will not be another class of fighters.
      I know that in reality there are multirole fighters flying all types of missions and the singular role fighter is somewhat obsolete.

      What we will be doing is dropping the F-15C Air Sup from the Strike branch, moving down the F-15E to mid tier and introducing the F15-SE as top (still pondering over the partial stealth feature atm).

      @Oceanhawk: I do realize our mistake with the F15C being in the wrong tree, but would like to retain the F16 as the mainstay Air Sup fighter for US due to the lighter build and viability.

      Thanks again all for the constructive feedback - good stuff coming from the community is always best.

      //G
      "Going to war without France is like going hunting without an accordion." Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf
    • Germanico wrote:

      still pondering over the partial stealth feature atm

      Germanico wrote:

      What we will be doing is dropping the F-15C Air Sup from the Strike branch, moving down the F-15E to mid tier and introducing the F15-SE as top (still pondering over the partial stealth feature atm).

      @Oceanhawk: I do realize our mistake with the F15C being in the wrong tree, but would like to retain the F16 as the mainstay Air Sup fighter for US due to the lighter build and viability.
      I agree with you Germanico. The seperate class was a suggestion, but I didn't see it really being implemented. The F-15SE is a Stealth Fighter, The F-15SA is a hybrid between the F-15E and F-15SE. The F-15SE currently may never fly, it's hard to know whether the US will procure and pursue the development of such aircraft or not. But the F-15SA is real and although has a reduced Radar Cross section compared to the F-15E it's not quite 5th Generation stealth more like 4+ like the European Delta wing trio (Rafale,Gripen and Typhoon) .

      F-15E
      Lakenheath_F-15E.jpg


      F-15SA
      F-15SA.jpg

      F-15SE
      F15SE.jpg

      F-15SA looks more like the F-15SE than it looks similar to the F-15E. The F-15SE being a Stealth Strike Fighter kind of means it's more suitable in the Stealth Strike Category instead of the Strike Category. The F-15SA is also in service, whilst the F-15SE has no flying prototype I'm aware of. Just a quote from Wikipedia F-15SE page: Boeing had shifted from the F-15SE to the "Advanced F-15". The Advanced F-15 is the F-15SA. That's not say that the F-15SE maybe revived in the future. But for the moment the most advanced Strike Fighter in existence other than the F-35, is the F-15SA (I consider the Rafale to be in 3rd place). Don't worry about Stealth and just go for the F-15SA Advanced Eagle.
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