GENERAL UPDATE (180726)

US frigates aren't Aegis capable. Aegis is a meme system only good at killing plane loads of Iranian civilians. If the game were patterned after the real world than missiles are gonna strike and destroy every unhardened target 8/10 times. Corvette should be modeled as a slow coastal gunship without range perhaps. Frigates as fast guided missile vessels with ranged weapons. If you can research destroyers and cruisers on day one why the heck not a frigate?

@Germanico : Well, maybe you didn't had time to read the extensive reasoning Mc Johnson made, but to summarise it to the barebone (because he make an interesting case study), the 10 minute refresh timer obviously make the range more meaningful than before. In this regard, the Frigate having the highest range except for the Max level TDS, it' can provide a cover very far, even inlands. Add to that the very high damage output, and it's why many people have concerns about the "balance'" of the frigate by comparison to the SAM or other anti-air option.

I seriously have no idea what you are on about when you say: "Aegis is a meme system only good at killing plane loads of Iranian civilians."
If you are referring to the Iran Air incident then I know of it, but it has no relevance to us. And you may be surprised but we do not model our game solely after US units.

When I say the US have plans for this or that then usually I base this on public information, such as eg. Aegis Ashore - google it and you will find info on it. Now the reason that the US and some allies are considering a shore version is the success of AEGIS and the previous incorporation of Aegis ships into land defense ( if I remember correctly last seen during the Korea Missile Crisis when the US stationed some Aegis ships in port to protect the town.).

Frigates or not frigates doesn't play a role - we also don't have Aegis. It's all air defense.

If you want to play a deep naval sim go check out Command: Modern Air/ Naval Operations

//G

There is something much better. Denying the enemy access to airspace. And thats exactly what you achieve with Fregates. Any movement in the air will be so costly that you would be better off attacking with aircraft ground transport units. You shouldn't build SAMs so when your enemy attacks you, you have SAMs in your stack as air defense.

Its the same with better SAM usage, they aren't meant to defend your troops, they are meant to deny airspace. So your opponent can't gather information nor conduct any airstrikes. Obviously not possible with few SAMs, this is why I always have 10+ SAMs with any battlegroup to give a good message to my opponent: "This airspace doesn't belong to you, if you disagree, you will have tremendous losses".

I explained what makes Fregates so op, if you dont think so, can you tell me where exactly you disagree and why Fregates aren't so strong in the end? Are there any faults in my explenation?

I prefer to have such issues fixed earlier, not to break the game and fix it afterwards. Any game played with broken units is a game too much. Neither do I want to start the game with fregates next round and have them nerfed back to normal in the middle of the round.


Edit:
Defending your ground units from Air with AA is one thing.

Denying your enemy the airspace denies him information AND the possiblity to strike targets.

Obviously the second is better. You can do both with SAMs and Fregates. If you want to use point defense as a last resort against Airstrikes, only SAMs can do. But thats only the last resort. The huge Frigates range can instead deny the airspace much better. If you deny the airspace, you don't have to worry about airstrikes anyways.
Denying information is very important too, or gaining an information advantage. With 1 stealth Superiority Fighter and 2 AWACs to collect information on my enemy, deny his aircrafts to collect information with plenty of SAMs, I went 24k-0.5k casualties, against a very active Top10 ranked player. Our army was fairly similar, artilleries (same range), Anti Air, Air Superiority Fighter. My advantage on information made all the differences.
Most players use aircrafts, most often Air Superiority Fighters or Strike Fighters, to gather information on the enemy, you can deny it with SAMs. You can deny it even more with Fregates. As shown in the map, you can deny a lot of airspace leaving your opponent dark on whats happening while you know everything. You don't even need AWACs now that the Fregates got 150km radar range.

Well the main reason we gave it the long range was of course exactly that you don't shut down the defenses and then fly in within the 10 minute gap and destroy the carrier group at hardly any loss. If you think about it, naval stacks are in a way much more vulnerable / rare than ground units - and often very valuable to the player. Hence beefed up naval air defense.

This being said we just discussed it here internally and admit that we may have overdone it. As it looks presently it is probably somewhat OP - at least stats wise.

We thus propose to lower its range to 100/125 (from 100/150) and increase its cost in Electronics and Money to emphasis its "high-tech" approach.

This would come in one of the next updates. Does that sound feasible?

I might be snarky but, I'm actually trying to be helpful. Tweaking may not be the solution to the overall system if an overhaul is needed. I'll try to document the variable values this weekend and present a hypothetical database the next.
@Mc_Johnson I suggest you do the same. We can't complain about their minor tweaks which have no major impact on the game's entirety if we don't attempt to posit our own solution in proof form. If our simple logic and spreadsheets are countermanded than I'd say we have every right too whine. It can't just be one hand clapping but, a community effort to 'correct' the problems!

I think its very good. If we are speaking about the radar range. The AA range doesn't bother me, its the radar range, which in turn enables to use the huge AA rage.
It wouldn't change much to have the AA radius at 125km too, to use the extra AA range outside the radar range takes a bit more effort. Whoever is willing to put in this effort should be rewarded^^

25km less in radius will make a notable difference, and a buff in money and electronics will certainly make it not op.


@mccarty.geoff I dont complain or comment on every minor thing. For example the mobile Anti air missile damage or annectation costs got changed, I am yet to lose a word about it^^
On the other hand, giving the Fregate 50km more radar range, makes a huge difference, changing the game, at least for me.
While before I would go for those units: SAMs, Air Sups, Artillery. All I would need with op fregates: Fregates, Artillery.

@mccarty.geoff I am now issuing a final warning for toxic behavior. None more will follow.

What you are actually doing is spreading negative sentiment for reasons only clear to you.

We are not an open forum and your contributions are not constructive.

Asking for things like total overhauls is neither helpful nor realistic.

//G

Well, that's the long and short of it. If I were you I'd wait until I've ordered that year subscription next month before banning me though.
Naturally, if we design and post our own database schemes we wouldn't realistically believe they'd be applied outright. It would be a source of discussion and organization amongst members. Perhaps, something acceptable could be released to beta-testing. The more knowledgable one is on any subject the more helpful they'd be. The managers and developers should certainly be open to their consumer's feedback. The member's should be patient sure but, not expected to respond like bobble headed toys to every design session's decision.

I think the AA update has been great, it shock's the hell out of the "Strike Fighters rule IWIN stack" crowd. It gives the Pacific rim a chance while all the land heavy nations are doing SAMs. Playing South Africa I made it up to Ethiopia along the east coast, one country was sending a stack of 13 Heavy Bombers to bomb my cities, it was nice to whittle it down over the Red Sea and Indian Ocean. I like games that don't have doom stacks, the update has helped me stop those tactics.

i do as well but i learned that helicopters can take them out they have know defence against them so i am changing some of the way i fight i biuld doom staks of fighter but will start splitting them and biuld helicopters as well

That’s why you should mix SAMs and Mobile AA/TD. The Mobile AA will eat Helis for breakfast.

I like the fact that navies are now more important, the smiple fact is in real life the global hegemon, always has the strongest navy, think of the British Royal Navy in the past and the US Navy in the present.

I do think that submarines should be a lot more powerful vs ships, but very vulnrable vs destoyers, asw planes/heli's, as the saying goes "There are two types of ships submarines and targets"

Needs to confirm, but it seems mobile anti-air AA don't trigger against aircrafts. Is it an isolated case, or is it working as intended ?

The "strike fighters will win fraction"'
well, they might win if you play them well... otherwise they will not. simple...
What i saw up to now is just some unpredictable behaviour of aa units in the last maps i played (and i know i am not alone with this).
In the end we all have to adjust our tactics to "what is".
Just demanding the developers to adjust the units to my tactics will not help much i guess...
LOL

I would not call it unpredictable, but there is both random damage results (as usual) and also a time/range factor making things a lot more "interesting".

@Opulon Concerning mobAA ... they are working afaik - please specify if you are seeing issues and we can QA them quickly.

//G

What do you mean by "unpredictable behaviour of aa units" ?

In the current update, you mean ?

It may be bugs, or some things to clarify.

For example, i don't know what is needed for an AA unit to "trigger" : radar signature ? or direct visual ? Etc

@Germanico : I'm not sure of it myself so i won't make a bug report of it for now, but i had a mobile anti-air under an opponent air superiority fighter (that i saw as a radar signaure), and the air superiority fighter was patrolling above my mobile anti-air (circles crossing). Yet, nothing was triggered.

I need to try to reproduce it.

"For example, i don't know what is needed for an AA unit to "trigger" : radar signature ? or direct visual ? Etc "

You hit it!
i was sitting there sometimes wondering about my aa.
Like "what the hell do i pay these guys for, they are just chilling watching the planes"...

AA units (and other ranged units) have a range of fire which game mechanically is NOT connected to view range or Radar Range.
This being said, these units will only fire IF they know there is a unit out there... otherwise they won't have a target to shoot at (logically).
We designers adjusted the AA units firing range to coincide with the visual range for some (mobAA) and Radar for the others (TD/SAM).

Hope that clarifies it a bit from the developers point of view.

ah ok ! So, with the mobile Anti-air, considering the visual range was not "direct" (aka i was seeing the radar signature thanks to a corvette), the mobile anti-air wasn't seeing it directly, and so, wasn't triggered