previously posted on discord:
Tanks that cost supplies
Can we get tanks that cost supplies? So instead of electronics+components maybe supplies+components//supplies+electronics?
We have witnessed the same changes for helicopters and ships already where previous components+electronics units are made into supply+electronic units.
And im not talking about the CRV which has too little att/def and HP to fit the characteristics of a tank.
Right now, the only thing that stops me/my alliance from building those tanks are those costs. Building tanks means less resources for Air Fighters, Ships, Submarines, you name it.
I believe the recent changes to building requirements of artillery units are also encouraging us to build tanks?
Give the ASW Helicopter a purpose
Right now, if you compare ASW helicopter and the naval patrol aircraft(NPA) on the most important aspects:
- roughly the same costs
- same building requirements
- NPA: far greater range
- NPA: a lot more overall damage (though less against subs, but way more against surface ships)
(I know, ASW Helicopter-> anti submarine(single and only purpose). An unit that already has a low usage rate. Subs without air protection can easily get chased away using ASW helicopter. Same goes with NPA. Except the NPA has longer range and can chase the subs even further away.)
Now imagine if the frigates lost their att values against helicopters.
Frigates wouldnt lose their ability to defend themselves and the ships in its stack. They wouldn't lose the ability to see Helicopters in their radar. They just cant actively shoot the Helicopters every 10 minutes. Which means the ASW Helicopter can move freely inside the Frigates AA range.
If the frigates could no longer actively shoot the ASW helicopter, it has a new purpose: scouting. The ASW Helicopter can get much closer to the enemy ships without getting shot down. Of course the frigates would still have the strong anti-helicopter defence.
It is not even needed to buff the helicopter defence of ships after my proposed changes: ASW Helicopters still deal little damage to surface ships and especially have very few HP. ASW helicopters can easily be countered by enemy (naval) Air Superiority Fighters too. While you cant even use your own Air Sup Fighters to attack the enemy AS Fighter because you are fighting inside the huge A-Aircraft bubble of the Frigates.
Aircraft Carriers and Cruisers should keep their offensive value against helicopters though, because the range is so little it hardly makes a difference.
Thinking of it, the other long-range AA guns dont have anti-helicopter attack values either... maybe because its hard to shoot down low flying objects 100km away?
The useless MRL before late game
What makes the MRL so special?
The range you might think. It has greater range. Comparing the max level with mobile Artillery the MRL has 25km more range. Having a greater range than your opponent is actually huge and can turn around the tide of any war.
But, lets take a closer look now, when exactly does the MRL have a greater range?
MRL can be researched from day 5 onwards. Immediately a 75km range. While towed and mobile artillery each start with 50km range. HOWEVER, on day 5 the towed artillery can already improve its range via research. The mobile Artillery on day 6/7/8(doctrines).
Which means at the beginning, the MRL does NOT have a range advantage against the towed one and only a short advantage against the mobile.
When does the MRL upgrade its range again via research? Day 13.
When do the other two upgrade their ranges? Towed: 24/26/26 Mobile: 12/14/16
To conclude, the MRL gets an advantage against the Towed in midgame, but not against the mobile artillery, on contrary, the mobile could even get a range advantage on the MRL!
Only in the late game, day 27, the MRL finally establishes its total range dominance, gaining the 125km range.
To summarize, the MRL actually doesnt have a range advantage of any significance compared to the other artilleries until day ~29.
This graphic shows when which artillery has the best range at any day. (There can be multiple artilleries to have the best range). Artilleries with a line on top of them means they have the best range.
A range superiority exists if only one artillery has a line on top of itself for at least one day.
What other comparisons can be made between the MRL and the other two artilleries?
- The MRL deals slightly more damage overall. Most importantly, it damages soft and hard targets equally. Whether this is good or bad is very situational.
- the MRL is quite unmobile, it only learns to fly on day 27, even the mobile artilery learn to fly on day 22/24/26.
- Compared to the mobile artillery, the MRL is slower at the beginning and eventually it gets even faster than the mobile artillery.
- The MRL almost only has half of the mobile Artilleries Hit points, making it far less tanky, but as squishy as the towed artillery.
- The MRL even needs a 4th army base level to produce it. This is a huge deal because you take more time and resources to actually start a new production centre for MRLs.
- The MRL costs supplies+electronics, same as towed artillery, yet about 50% more.
What does it all mean?
The MRL is only worth it in the very late game. Its not an unit that gives a good return in early or mid game AT ALL.It costs more than the towed artillery, has higher building requirements than the mobile artillery, does not have a range advantage until day 29, is only getting faster than the mobile artillery in mid-game, does not deal that much more damage, only learns how to fly much later than every other unit.
Comparing the cruiser, the naval super unit with the superior range, and the MRL, the ground artillery super unit with the "superior" range:
Both units are the super units in their respective fields, higher building requirements, more range, more expensive, excel in late game, yet there are few differences:
- The Cruiser deals significantly more damage to surface ships (you rarely see subs) than the destroyer, especially the later in the game you are. 25% more -> 67% more.
- The Cruiser has quite a few more HP than the frigate or the destroyer
- Most importantly, it has a consistent range advantage. It scales almost the same as destroyers/frigates:
Destroyer: Day2 50km range; Day 13 75km range; Day23 100km range
Cruiser: Day 3 75km range; Day 15 100km range; Day 26 125km range
With only very few exceptions (Days: 2; 13-14; 23-25), the cruiser holds a range advantage throughout the game from early to late game. Making it a viable unit even from the beginning.
All this is different to the MRL, as I explained the MRL above. Most notably is that while the naval super unit has a consistent range bonus, the MRL doesnt have a consistent range bonus.
What changes do I propose?
I bet the usage rate of MRL is very low. It doesnt have a clear purpose until late game. It doesnt have anything that justifies the higher costs and production requirements until late game. Doubt its great to have units that are only useful in very late.
I suggest moving the rage bonuses in the Tech tree a bit earlier, so the MRL actually can outrange the enemy before day 29. It doesnt have to be a non-stop consistent range advantage, at least partially and not getting outranged is already a step in the right direction.
Furthermore, buffing its damage could justify the much greater costs to produce MRLs. It already starts with quite a bit of more damage than the other artilleries, yet the other artilleries damage scale stronger. Up to 100% more damage while the MRL only scales slow, 50% more damage throughout 3 tiers.
Tanks that cost supplies
Can we get tanks that cost supplies? So instead of electronics+components maybe supplies+components//supplies+electronics?
We have witnessed the same changes for helicopters and ships already where previous components+electronics units are made into supply+electronic units.
And im not talking about the CRV which has too little att/def and HP to fit the characteristics of a tank.
Right now, the only thing that stops me/my alliance from building those tanks are those costs. Building tanks means less resources for Air Fighters, Ships, Submarines, you name it.
I believe the recent changes to building requirements of artillery units are also encouraging us to build tanks?
Give the ASW Helicopter a purpose
Right now, if you compare ASW helicopter and the naval patrol aircraft(NPA) on the most important aspects:
- roughly the same costs
- same building requirements
- NPA: far greater range
- NPA: a lot more overall damage (though less against subs, but way more against surface ships)
(I know, ASW Helicopter-> anti submarine(single and only purpose). An unit that already has a low usage rate. Subs without air protection can easily get chased away using ASW helicopter. Same goes with NPA. Except the NPA has longer range and can chase the subs even further away.)
Now imagine if the frigates lost their att values against helicopters.
Frigates wouldnt lose their ability to defend themselves and the ships in its stack. They wouldn't lose the ability to see Helicopters in their radar. They just cant actively shoot the Helicopters every 10 minutes. Which means the ASW Helicopter can move freely inside the Frigates AA range.
If the frigates could no longer actively shoot the ASW helicopter, it has a new purpose: scouting. The ASW Helicopter can get much closer to the enemy ships without getting shot down. Of course the frigates would still have the strong anti-helicopter defence.
It is not even needed to buff the helicopter defence of ships after my proposed changes: ASW Helicopters still deal little damage to surface ships and especially have very few HP. ASW helicopters can easily be countered by enemy (naval) Air Superiority Fighters too. While you cant even use your own Air Sup Fighters to attack the enemy AS Fighter because you are fighting inside the huge A-Aircraft bubble of the Frigates.
Aircraft Carriers and Cruisers should keep their offensive value against helicopters though, because the range is so little it hardly makes a difference.
Thinking of it, the other long-range AA guns dont have anti-helicopter attack values either... maybe because its hard to shoot down low flying objects 100km away?
The useless MRL before late game
What makes the MRL so special?
The range you might think. It has greater range. Comparing the max level with mobile Artillery the MRL has 25km more range. Having a greater range than your opponent is actually huge and can turn around the tide of any war.
But, lets take a closer look now, when exactly does the MRL have a greater range?
MRL can be researched from day 5 onwards. Immediately a 75km range. While towed and mobile artillery each start with 50km range. HOWEVER, on day 5 the towed artillery can already improve its range via research. The mobile Artillery on day 6/7/8(doctrines).
Which means at the beginning, the MRL does NOT have a range advantage against the towed one and only a short advantage against the mobile.
When does the MRL upgrade its range again via research? Day 13.
When do the other two upgrade their ranges? Towed: 24/26/26 Mobile: 12/14/16
To conclude, the MRL gets an advantage against the Towed in midgame, but not against the mobile artillery, on contrary, the mobile could even get a range advantage on the MRL!
Only in the late game, day 27, the MRL finally establishes its total range dominance, gaining the 125km range.
To summarize, the MRL actually doesnt have a range advantage of any significance compared to the other artilleries until day ~29.
This graphic shows when which artillery has the best range at any day. (There can be multiple artilleries to have the best range). Artilleries with a line on top of them means they have the best range.
A range superiority exists if only one artillery has a line on top of itself for at least one day.
What other comparisons can be made between the MRL and the other two artilleries?
- The MRL deals slightly more damage overall. Most importantly, it damages soft and hard targets equally. Whether this is good or bad is very situational.
- the MRL is quite unmobile, it only learns to fly on day 27, even the mobile artilery learn to fly on day 22/24/26.
- Compared to the mobile artillery, the MRL is slower at the beginning and eventually it gets even faster than the mobile artillery.
- The MRL almost only has half of the mobile Artilleries Hit points, making it far less tanky, but as squishy as the towed artillery.
- The MRL even needs a 4th army base level to produce it. This is a huge deal because you take more time and resources to actually start a new production centre for MRLs.
- The MRL costs supplies+electronics, same as towed artillery, yet about 50% more.
What does it all mean?
The MRL is only worth it in the very late game. Its not an unit that gives a good return in early or mid game AT ALL.It costs more than the towed artillery, has higher building requirements than the mobile artillery, does not have a range advantage until day 29, is only getting faster than the mobile artillery in mid-game, does not deal that much more damage, only learns how to fly much later than every other unit.
Comparing the cruiser, the naval super unit with the superior range, and the MRL, the ground artillery super unit with the "superior" range:
Both units are the super units in their respective fields, higher building requirements, more range, more expensive, excel in late game, yet there are few differences:
- The Cruiser deals significantly more damage to surface ships (you rarely see subs) than the destroyer, especially the later in the game you are. 25% more -> 67% more.
- The Cruiser has quite a few more HP than the frigate or the destroyer
- Most importantly, it has a consistent range advantage. It scales almost the same as destroyers/frigates:
Destroyer: Day2 50km range; Day 13 75km range; Day23 100km range
Cruiser: Day 3 75km range; Day 15 100km range; Day 26 125km range
With only very few exceptions (Days: 2; 13-14; 23-25), the cruiser holds a range advantage throughout the game from early to late game. Making it a viable unit even from the beginning.
All this is different to the MRL, as I explained the MRL above. Most notably is that while the naval super unit has a consistent range bonus, the MRL doesnt have a consistent range bonus.
What changes do I propose?
I bet the usage rate of MRL is very low. It doesnt have a clear purpose until late game. It doesnt have anything that justifies the higher costs and production requirements until late game. Doubt its great to have units that are only useful in very late.
I suggest moving the rage bonuses in the Tech tree a bit earlier, so the MRL actually can outrange the enemy before day 29. It doesnt have to be a non-stop consistent range advantage, at least partially and not getting outranged is already a step in the right direction.
Furthermore, buffing its damage could justify the much greater costs to produce MRLs. It already starts with quite a bit of more damage than the other artilleries, yet the other artilleries damage scale stronger. Up to 100% more damage while the MRL only scales slow, 50% more damage throughout 3 tiers.