Rocket Defense

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    • Rocket Defense

      It is rockets again.

      I was playing COW to a certain point where it wasnt funny anymore when someone always started spamming missles.

      With the latest missle update you have moved into the same direction. Tier 2 cruise missle with 11 hitpoits...

      The jump from research 3 (5 Hitpoints) to research 4 (11 hitpoints) is immense!
      No other units gets a hitpoitn boost of more then 100% for such a cheap price.
      Even the unit price is not increasing.
      With every update of my Tower defesne the units are more expensive. But with missles...nothing same price.

      To defend i have to research TDS AND! i have to have a lvl 5 army base to build them.
      This is brutal and super expensive...There is no affordable way to defend against missles.
      Fregates have been weekend, SAMs as well.
      @Dorado If you Close the Forum and move everything to Discord you will lose my Feedback for sure.
    • and cost to make misiles means laboratory reseach ist nothing if after enemy make two unit (high level or three on start ) get in city and not posible strike this city by IBMC ? on max level

      and if you have small nation homeland its posible cover by 5-6 unit from misile strike so what its expensive make reseach witch have big impakt on own morale ( try to strike nuclear weapon day by day and if hit what hapens with morale in your city .. ) especialy how you say you have TDS and fregate and Sams and AntiAir vehicle its evrything cover before misile so if you count that enemy want make misile ( easy to see on homeland ... just use spy or keep eye on Con news if is reported that somebody start make misile reseach stop evrything prepare defence ... ist so easy... for me in CoN its much more posible make strong defence that strike prepared enemy with evrything just beat him on economy is posible for Biig Looose on navy and bomber and fighter misile just take resource and dont explode
    • You both are contradicting each other brilliantly @Andilek7319 @kurtvonstein

      Or am I reading something wrongly?

      Concerning HP of Missiles : this obviously has to do with the shift to TDs bring required as you rightfully point out Kurt. We also made TD systems a lot more mobile now.

      The reverse situation was often the case in the last few months: unbreakable missile shields erected in mid game - frustrating every player investing into them in the first place.
      "Going to war without France is like going hunting without an accordion." Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf
    • well i really dont get it. I dont understand what andilek tried to tell me.

      So i will turn to what you said Germanic.

      I dont care if TDS ist faster now. it never really bothered me as my TDS was homeland defense. And my front troops where moving to fast for ballistics rockets. An dagainst crusie missles my sams are suffient (unless they sudennly pop of with 11 Hitpoints...crazy!)

      My problem is that is is very expensive to defend agaisnt missles. You need to have a lvl 5 baracks.

      And I dont understand, what is your problem with a missle shield. This game ist about weapons and counterweapons. So if a missle is a weapon then the TDS is trhe coutnerweapon. It makes no sense to make the weapon stronger then the counterweapon.
      No you need to have an other weapon against the counter weapon.

      So if someone is build up a anti rocket defense i might need to crush soem of his untis with tanks or artillery first.

      Or i simple send 3 missle after each other...the 3rd will make it.

      My second point is, that missles improve in hitpoints and damage but they dont get more expensive to produce. But the counterunits are more expensive to produce the higher their level is.

      All leads to annoying missle spam.
      @Dorado If you Close the Forum and move everything to Discord you will lose my Feedback for sure.
    • "kurtvonstein"
      I can not agree with you! In this game it has always been, and now, too, it is easier and cheaper to make defense against missiles - than: 1. to study warheads, 2. to study carriers (various), 3. to study the possibility of launching missiles from these carriers, 4. thoroughly deliver and pierce defense of equal in strength and experience of the player.

      all that you need to defend is to put three long-range missile defense systems and two mobile air defense installations in this stack, while all you need is to have the first level and vary only in quantity (which in itself is cheaper than studying ballistic missiles at max lvl, then cruise missiles up to the possibility of launching cruise missiles), moreover, the launchers themselves are quite vulnerable and must also be protected (including strategic submarines).


      Also, the production of warheads (which are disposable) is comparable to the production of air defense machines (I repeat, they are disposable and are not treated)

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      Не могу согласиться с тобой! В этой игре всегда было, и сейчас тоже, легче и дешевле произвести оборону от ракет - чем: 1.изучить боеголовки, 2. изучить носители (разнообразные), 3.изучить возможность пуска ракет с этих носителей, 4.потом грамотно доставить и пробить оборону равного по силе и опыту игрока.

      все что тебе нужно что бы обороняться поставить три дальних ПРО и в этот стек две мобильные установки ПВО, при этом достаточно все это иметь первого уровня и варьировать только количеством (что само по себе дешевле чем изучать на макс лвл баллистические ракеты, крылатые ракеты потом истребители до возможности пуска крылатых ракет) более того сами пусковые установки довольно уязвимы и их тоже нужно защищать (в том числе подводные лодки стратегического назначения).

      Так же производство боеголовок (которые одноразовые) сопоставимы с производством машин ПВО (при этом повторюсь они одноразовые и не лечатся)
    • Talking about defesne against rockets...you have to do the research for them too. and they get more expensive with lvl. The rockets not.

      If you have a stack with defense i just time it right and attack you within the 10 min range and your air defense can not do anthing at all.

      i can also just spam all your cites and bomb them to the ground giving you no chance to build new units.

      And talking about launch station: well practictly every unit can shot cruise missles in a later level.

      And the launches for balistic rockets are improving with the level and damage of the rockets....they are so cheap a spawn them all over my country in case of a counter attack.

      Coming bakc to my initial opion: missles hve a big advantage.
      @Dorado If you Close the Forum and move everything to Discord you will lose my Feedback for sure.
    • You're oversimplifying the facts... even the maximum LVL nuclear Intercontinental missile (40 HP) will not pass the minimum level of anti-missile defense (which has 8 forces protection) in the correct amount in the stack. Having the simplest mathematical operation division (40/8=5) which means 5 pieces anti-missile defense 100% knocks down any number of maximum rocked missiles, hot 1000 pieces! And no 10-minute cooldown will help you... Again, to overcome anti-missile defense is harder than to defend...

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      Ты слишком упрощаешь подтасовывая факты... даже максимального лвл ядерная межконтинентальная ракета (40 хп) не пройдет минимального уровня противо ракетное ПВО (которое имеет защиту 8 сил) в правильном количестве в стеке. Проведя самую простую математическую операцию деление (40/8=5) что значит 5 штук противо ракетное ПВО 100% сбивает любое количество максимально качаных ракет, хот 1000 штук! И никакой 10 минутный интервал перезарядки тебе не поможет... Повторюсь преодолеть противо ракетное ПВО тяжелее чем обороняться...
    • Experimented with this principle, when they added large blast radius to ICBMs. There is an easy workaround that will make you sleep easier at night.

      (If the behaviour of ICBMs have been modified, then mea culpa, but this workaround served me well.)


      Let's imagine a guy has 10 TDS max level in the city you want to obliterate, that are themselves protected by 2 TDS in every province around the city. In the city next to it, there is also 10 TDS in a stack that cover the city (making the city protected by approximately 30 TDS max level in a very close layer, "mail armor" pattern).

      Prerequisite : a minimum level of intelligence (i'll suppose that you know where the TDS are).

      1°) Depending of what you have at hand, prepare an plane, or a cruise missile launcher, or a ballistic launcher (really, whatever you want, doesn't matter)
      2°) Launch your ICBM (whatever level isn't relevant. Well, it must be enough to kill 2 TDS max level, so, if the ICBM is level one, it has a chance to be killed. It's already highly unlikely an opponent will commit to the point of putting 2 TDS max level on every single province around a city) on the suburbs next to the target city.
      3°) Wait for the ICBM to be in <10 minutes to target.
      4°) Launch a bait with a direct attack toward the suburbs the ICBM is headed. I liked to do it with conventional warheads. Now that TDS are so weak against planes, you may prefer to use an ASF (quicker, you will control more the timing). Of course, the underlying idea is to trigger everything the opponent has with a mosquito, before the tsar bomba enters the bubble. It's really easy to do, especially if you have some quick planes.
      5°) See the glory of 20 TDS triggering together, applying their ~200 missile damage to an 3 HP cruise missile (level 1)
      6°) ICBM will hit 2 TDS in point defense, considering the 18 others are busy reloading.
      7°) Did you know ICBM had such an impressive blast radius that hitting the suburbs perfectly hits the city ?
      8°) Enjoy the ~14-15 TDS killed at once + city razed.
      9°) Inform your opponent that in this game, anti-missile only works for beginners, and against beginners.


      The only difficulty lies in the anticipation of when the bubble will trigger. I lost several ICBMs because i was unlucky and the bubble triggered with my CM still 3 minutes from objective. Those 3 minutes were "just what the TDS needed to reload".

      Otherwise, i'd say that on the ladder of risk, it's in the "very safe, economical, and efficient" side of tricks.
      Not to mention, the opponent fighting spirit will probably immediatly break (it's hard for the mind to aknowledge that you over-prepared to hard counter something, and it just doesn't work because it never worked) which equals immediate victory
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.
    • I agree. However, i still think that we need to continue to think and ask ourselves how to, in the future, create an correct (and not exploitable) balance between anti-missile and missile. It's not something i complain about the game, because i saw many attempts to balance it, and it's really "an hell". I do not have any good solution, and can't really bring something useful in the brainstorming.

      Especially since there are several "layers" of reasoning, in terms of point defense, splash damage, etc... A part of optimist me hopes that future refactoring will open doors.

      My intervention is more refute something i see way too much nowadays : "Pls buff missiles, anti-missile too strong". It is 50 lightyears far from the reality of how the game mechanisms works, and it's the most deceitful aspect of the game.


      1°) Some people say Missiles are useless against Anti-missile, broken, pls fix, pls buff missiles --→ I shouldn't do missiles, and I should do anti-missile.
      2°) Problem, the reality of meta is the EXACT opposite : anti-missile has a lot of workarounds that negate most of its power, most of those workarounds imply missiles, and the cost efficiency tends to go in missile favour (with splash damage)
      3°) The people that knows the truth enjoy a situation where their opponents will build themselves the T.rojan Horse that will kill them, and they will probably be convinced that "ah, this TDS program was expensive, but at least i'm protected".
      4°) As long as those people fight against people that do not know the truth, they will be reinforced in their behaviour.


      This said, i still disagree with the first post :D. I don't think anti-missile should be buffed, because the problem "isn't there".
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.
    • I believe that the introduction of random air defense would be a disaster! There is no such problem as an ATTACK against protected air defense of the territory, and there is no such problem how to REPEL the attack of the missiles! There is one problem: players do not want to conduct reconnaissance, they are too lazy to conduct a military operation to conduct reconnaissance. And someone who knows the stack the defense will ALWAYS OVERCOME!

      P.S. just for the defender it is important not to be passive and destroy the means of launching missiles, again - this is a plan for the development of the player who needs to think at the start of the game seeing who your friends and rivals and what they build and explore.
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      Считаю что введение рендома ПВО будет катастрофой! Нет такой проблемы как АТАКА против защищенной ПВО территории, и нет такой проблемы как ОТРАЗИТЬ атаку ракет! Есть одна проблема: игроки не хотят проводить разведку, им лень перед проведение войсковой операции провести разведывательную. А тот кто знает состав стека в обороне ВСЕГДА ПРЕОДОЛЕЕТ оборону!

      P.S.так же для обороняющегося важно не быть пассивным и уничтожать средства пуска ракет, опять же - это план развития игрока который нужно обдумывать на старте игры видя кто твои друзья и соперники и что они строят и исследуют.
    • i explained precisely and technically that missile-defense doesn't exist, really, in this game, when you have understood how it works. Let me reiterate : your statement about someone who knows how to stack defense will always overcome is wrong. Not a little. Not "slightly". It is wrong "per design". I don't ask you to trust me randomly. Just try it.


      Ask one of your friends to max TDS, to build 50 of them (100K supplies, 150K electronics) to position them around a city , then follow my process step by step, using one cruise missile and one ICBM. Just one. The number of TDS is arbitrarly specifically because numbers don't matter.


      i see from your stats that you are using Missiles by the hundreds. The problem isn't the missile, it's how you use them. You should have a K/D close to mine, with how much missiles you use.

      @Germanico : i suppose you refer to an post-legacy potential feature where an TDS has an X% chance of triggering upon any impact ? I disagree it would be less predictable. It would be "unpredictable" through predictable stats :D. A bit like CiV, in fact. If i have 50% to intercept something, and the missile goes through, i just say "unlucky", i don't say "broken" :D
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.
    • @Opulon I would rather "randomize" the time window - eg. instead of giving it a straight 10m timer I would make it random somewhere between eg 5 and 15 or such. We would be shifting the window allowing the same mechanic but making it harder to pull off. In a nutshell this is the same as in RL - where SAM and AA radar switch on randomly ocross loads of spectrums and bands while physically relocating in order to avoid being targeted by counter-missiles.
      "Going to war without France is like going hunting without an accordion." Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf
    • According to my statistics, it is clear just how much I missiles were used, how they were used to destroy the target, and as I started to exploration you can't judge (the damage received cruise missile and the damage received by the opponent, one can judge the presence and quality of air defense opponents). About the fact that the anti-air defense missiles are not omnipotent - that I also acknowledge... that's good! But be that as it may, equal players in one battle as opponents will not be able to deal only with overcoming missile defense... then they will have the "Achilles heel" which you can use and not bother with missiles.

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      По моей статистике видно только то сколько я ракет использовал, сколько их использовал для уничтожения цели, а сколько я запустил для разведки ты не можешь судить (по урону полученному крылатой ракетой и по урону полученному соперником можно судить о наличии и качествам ПВО соперника). По поводу того, что против ракет ПВО не всесильно - это я тоже подтверждаю... но это и хорошо! Но как бы там ни было равные игроки в одной битве являясь противниками не смогут заниматься только преодолением противоракетной обороны... тогда у них останется "Ахиллесова пята" которой и можно воспользоваться и не заморачиваться ракетами.
    • I don't understand you. If i have 2-3 cruise missiles level 1, and one ICBM level 1, i don't fear 200 TDS level max, i know i will pierce through. It's predictable, documented, easy to reproduce, already official in the meta, and some alliances already have it in their basic training.

      "@Opulon I would rather "randomize" the time window - eg. instead of giving it a straight 10m timer I would make it random somewhere between eg 5 and 15 or such. We would be shifting the window allowing the same mechanic but making it harder to pull off. In a nutshell this is the same as in RL - where SAM and AA radar switch on randomly ocross loads of spectrums and bands while physically relocating in order to avoid being targeted by counter-missiles."

      Ok. Not sure if it would solve the initial problem, but... why not
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.
    • I don't think, randomizing the window for the check would make it more accessible, more the opposite because even as the owner of the AA-units you would not be able to know anymore, when the next check will happen. In regards of speed 10 min is already quite a huge gap, and if I'm not mistaken you can give yourself an even bigger gap, if played right.

      If you want more randomness, I would suggest to wreck the global AA-check and replace it with a stack specific timer. After completion a unit will have a countdown of 10 min for a check, just like patrols have. If a defence AA-action gets triggered, the timer will shift to every 10 min after last action. The time should be only visible to allies of course.

      If you want to give players more control/influence you also might add a button to enforce AA-action.