Frigates defense and attack

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  • Frigates defense and attack

    Few hours ago i've lost 3 frigates destroyed by few ASW. How can a frigate , the air defense of my fleet, be so vulknerable ?

    an user can defeat all my fleet using few attack helicopters or ASW. with DEF 1, frigate is too vulnerable.

    Another question: highest lvl frigates have DEF 4 against cruise missiles, while missiles are 15. Does it means that 2 missiles kill 3 staked frigates? Anyway, what shouold be the air protection of the fleet, just became a weak anti aircraft.
  • 3 Frigs vs "a few" - most probably 5 or more. And then you expect them to be blown outta the air. Why? Because "FRIG".
    They were probably close to shore - harassing/securing the air space (or why else have only 3 frigs lying around?).
    So helicopters fly NOE (nap of earth and under radar) to deliberately ruin the day of commanders relying on such tactics.

    I am sorry to alter your previous play-style, but what used to be a one trick defense pony now became a normal weapon system with pros and cons.
    Parking Frigs along the coastline devastating Heli's for instance is a thing of the past now.
    Also simply building tons of them to defend against everything doesn't work any longer.

    Layer your defenses, create an air-screen (against Helis for instance) and accept that there is no cookie cutter unit in this game.
    Hope I was able to explain our reasoning.

    //G
    "Going to war without France is like going hunting without an accordion." Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf
  • man, before i had good ship wars against my enemies. now they make only helicopters and defeat my ships.
    whats the sense?

    At least DEF 2, but DEF 1? DEF for something responsable for air defense of my fleet...? i think game is wrong there.
    just my opinion.
    you moved the war to air, instead improve the sea war. 5 ASW kill 5 frigates? unbeliveable, and specially because ASW must be effective against subs.

    how frigates to defend one cruise missile higest lvl? 2 cruise msisiles can ruin 3 stack frigates.

    Think... you let the sea war too vulnerable. ships aren't cheap. if you weaker it, nobody is going to produce and game lose an interesting aspect.
    my opinion and now im going to use helicopters instead ships, as game update recommended and forced me to do.
  • It's sad that cruisers now have better aa against helicopters than frigates. Especially since its description is a platform for cruise missiles and artillery whereas the frigate is to create a solid anti-air envelope around friendly units. You're telling me that a ship designed to shoot air targets cannot do so. How are we supposed to "layer" our defences? Wait until day 17 so I can air assault mobile aa so that they don't get sunk while on the sea? And what happens if I don't have an airbase nearby? Build an Aircraft carrier filled with naval air superiority fighters? Sorry but just building the level 5 naval base and researching the aircraft carrier way too expensive. Fighters also require some micromanagement to be truly effective, something that may not be possible since most players don't have the time to play. Overstack till I have 70 frigates so I can swatt the helis out of the sky? Insane.

    The thing is that the game should find a point where it is still possible to sink enemy ships with helicopters but needs to reconsider if it is worth as he is going to take heavy casualties. The cons obviously outweigh the pros in this case since they suffer almost no damage.

    Edit: Sentence had an error in it
  • While this update is a bit hard to adapt to, it finally gives a potential true role to aircraft carriers in terms of offensive means.

    I'm happy to see ASW used, btw :D
    Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.
  • maxchan22 wrote:

    It's sad that cruisers now have better aa against helicopters than frigates. Especially since its description is a platform for cruise missiles and artillery whereas the frigate is to create a solid anti-air envelope around friendly units. You're telling me that a ship designed to shoot air targets cannot do so. How are we supposed to "layer" our defences? Wait until day 17 so I can air assault mobile aa so that they don't get sunk while on the sea? And what happens if I don't have an airbase nearby? Build an Aircraft carrier filled with naval air superiority fighters? Sorry but just building the level 5 naval base and researching the aircraft carrier way too expensive. Fighters also require some micromanagement to be truly effective, something that may not be possible since most players don't have the time to play. Overstack till I have 70 frigates so I can swatt the helis out of the sky? Insane.

    The thing is that the game should find a point where it is still possible to sink enemy ships with helicopters but needs to reconsider if it is worth as he is going to take heavy casualties. The cons obviously outweigh the pros in this case since they suffer almost no damage.

    Edit: Sentence had an error in it

    thats the point.

    game used a heavy hand to change and ruined the frigates objective
  • Also, islands gets a more strategic role in air control - first is better, until "Carriers have arrived!".

    Btw. I'm trying to find a good balancing solution. Because it sounds nasty when ships can't defend against helis, but every boost to frigates instantly pushes ASW completely out of the game, and reduces the roles of other units.

    The only things are :
    - minor boost to frigate's DEF AA damage but -25% at coastal waters.
    - carrier from naval base lv 4 :whistling:

    Any concrete balancing proposition guys?
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  • -25% in coastal water would be interesting

    As for carrier for naval base

    "ok, but then, why is there a naval base 5 ?" :D
    Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.
  • "ok, but then, why is there a naval base 5 ?"

    Dunno. Both are funky solutions. Still amazed that you call -25%... interesting. ^^

    I wouldn't touch anything here, because I remember forum "wars" about bringing ASW back to life. 8)
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  • I dont sea imbalance here:
    - If we take full stack of both (5 pcs) frigate and ASW 1st lvl, we will have 125 hp for frigates and 85 hp for ASW
    - frigate attack against ASW is 2 in fact (cose doubled if frigate attacked), so stack has 10 damage points
    - ASW has 3.5 damage against naval, so 17.5 damage per stack
    - ASW is slow and will be damaged by frigate's AA aura at least 2 times per single attack, so here 2 times x 5 damage, totally 10 damage per single attack.

    As above per single attack frigates damage ASW for 20 points and kill 1 copters. ASW damage frigates for 17.5 points only and not kill any vessel. As you see equally developed ASW just cant kill frigate ... Where is imbalance ?

    Frigate is more expensive, but it win battle against ASW and frigate is multipurpose platform, it may by used as artillery against land units and directly against naval units. ASW is very specialized unit and effective against naval only, if it cant bring some damage to frigates it wont be built at all (sometimes ASW may be used as AWACS )

    Off course if yours 3 frigates were attacked and destroyed by couple of ASW wings its normally. Also online players have advantage using all air units, but this is another discussion.
  • "As above per single attack frigates damage ASW for 20 points and kill 1 copters. ASW damage frigates for 17.5 points only and not kill any vessel. As you see equally developed ASW just cant kill frigate ... Where is imbalance ?"

    Technically correct.

    I would add to it that the interesting catch in it is that "even with this operational result", it's still worth it to exhange ASWs against Frigates.

    In an optimal (and unlikely) situation of ASWs refilling the group after each casualties, you end sinking ~80% more resources than what you used. If the ASW group doesn't refill, you sink ~40-60% more resources than what you used

    It makes things pretty much as Raf described :

    - Short term, ASW won't win the early fight against frigates and suffer losses
    - Mid Term, the Frigates get attrition and can't recover as much HP as the ASWs if handled properly (by someone who has the basics of how HP are recovered)
    - Long Term, The frigates will probably retreat because while they technically "win" the exhanges, they are progressively grinded, and bringing reinforcement when a stack of ASWs can pick up on isolated ships is very dangerous.

    It's this kind of battle on Wikipedia where it's written "Tactical Victory for X, but Strategical Victory for Y"

    Overall, i like this kind of operational mind game.

    To conclude, i also say that this reasoning works in the very early game, at T1 level.

    The problem of the comparison between those two units is that a Frigate T1 (lvl 1) has the exact same anti-helicopter value than a Frigate T3 (level 7) = 2.

    So, a Day 1 ASW vs Frigate encounter is a

    100 HP 20 anti-helicopter vs 85 HP 17.5 anti-ship

    A Day 30 ASW vs Frigate encounter is a

    175 HP 20 anti-helicopter vs 125 HP 42.5 anti-ship

    ASW gradually win in efficiency throughout the game against frigates (and other ships, in fact.). I'm sure some have already coupled 4 ASW with an Helicopter officer to take profit of the damage mitigation as well as to push the HP to ~140 and the anti-ship damages to ~55, but it's another topic.

    Let's not forget (last but not least) that Frigates can not see helicopter easily (even with radar), and that while in early it's very unlikely to see the AA wasted by anything else than the ASW themselves, it's nearly certain that in late, the offensive round will be wasted by a missile or something equivalent, making easier to "penetrate the bubble".

    Now, it's obvious to say that at this point of the game "you will not have only frigates in the navy", and it's my point : this gave a nice spot for the aircraft carrier to ensure you can project your bubble and protect your ships from those nasty coastal guards
    Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.
  • "The problem of the comparison between those two units is that a Frigate T1 (lvl 1) has the exact same anti-helicopter value than a Frigate T3 (level 7) = 2.
    So, a Day 1 ASW vs Frigate encounter is a
    100 HP 20 anti-helicopter vs 85 HP 17.5 anti-ship
    A Day 30 ASW vs Frigate encounter is a
    175 HP 20 anti-helicopter vs 125 HP 42.5 anti-ship"

    Frigate T1 has basically 1 damage against copters, T2 has 1.5 and T3 has 2 points, so if initial calculation is aprox correct:

    So, a Day 1 ASW vs Frigate encounter is a
    125 HP 20 anti-helicopter vs 85 HP 17.5 anti-ship
    A Day 30 ASW vs Frigate encounter is a
    175 HP 40 anti-helicopter vs 125 HP 42.5 anti-ship"

    Slightly moved down for frigates, but not critical imho.
    And yes, ASW is cheaper and faster in development , to have T3 need 6 steps and 10 500 rare materials for ASW against 7 steps and 15 925 rare materials for frigate. So frigate is harder to develop and more costly to lose, but this imho is also ok cose frigate is attack platform and ASW is defensive, and attack always shall be more costly then defense (as in real life and good for game giving additional chances to less active people against ultra active guys)

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Raf ().

  • Woops, my bad. I was convinced the initial value of Frigates was 2.0. Thanks for the HP correction

    But then, why do you say that the frigate value is 20 ? They don't have the visual ability to spot helicopters through radar and, unless assisted by units that actually can (ground radar), the visual range ensures that the ASW can patrol without being seen by the visual range, and will disappear immediatly from sight once the offensive round has been triggered by the impact. After all, the ASW are an 7.5 speed heli. I was taking 20 as a reference because it seemed a natural "10 offensive triggered + 10 on impact"

    This said, this make frigate even less efficient in early.
    Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.
  • Hm:) I didnt noticed that frigates radar dont see choppers. Couple of days ago I attacked one fleet with ASW and all time received AAA damage from long distance (aprox 2/4 - 3/4 of max radars distance). I'm sure that sea was clear and there wasnt any other unit, which is able see rotary and assist frigate (I checked area before attack), frigate itself was low developed and in fleet was only low developed cruiser more. Probably my mistake was that I gave order to "attack" from long distance, but should give "patrol" order, is it possible ? I'm sure that my ASW received aura damage from frigate in "patrol" stance also, possible something isnt work as described :)
    In any case ,as per frigates radar descriptions, its radar is able see choppers when developed (close to T3)

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Raf ().

  • Germanico wrote:

    Please also don't forget that surface ships generally should stack mixed - precisely because we want to avoid the infamous one size fits all approach that older players still remember well.
    Even mixed.

    how is possible a frigate have less or same lvl for helicopter defense than infantry?

    how many frigates to defende 5 ASW or attack helicopters? even a stack with 4 frigates and 1 destroyers can't stop 5 ASW or attack helicopters at same lvl. crazy....

    Man, you try to defend the game changes, but that update was too deep and that's pretty clean. OR game regreat or frigates and ships in general will be abandoned as strategic units.

    and of the ASW or attack helicopters have a officer, that can defeat a complete and expensive fleet.
  • Raf wrote:

    Hm:) I didnt noticed that frigates radar dont see choppers. Couple of days ago I attacked one fleet with ASW and all time received AAA damage from long distance (aprox 2/4 - 3/4 of max radars distance). I'm sure that sea was clear and there wasnt any other unit, which is able see rotary and assist frigate (I checked area before attack), frigate itself was low developed and in fleet was only low developed cruiser more. Probably my mistake was that I gave order to "attack" from long distance, but should give "patrol" order, is it possible ? I'm sure that my ASW received aura damage from frigate in "patrol" stance also, possible something isnt work as described :)
    In any case ,as per frigates radar descriptions, its radar is able see choppers when developed (close to T3)
    Very interesting.

    Indeed, if Frigates can see chopper from afar, the attrition damage is perfectly enough to ensure frigates are "okayish" against helicopters.

    About direct attack/patrol, yeah, you should use patrol as much as possible for those kind of assault. At least, it reduces the distance the helicopters must cross to exist the AA zone ^^
    Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.
  • New

    You can go up in that very topic were various players including me describe the meta of mixed fleets vs ASWs.

    In late game, ASWs have the edge by growth
    ASWs win through continued attrition

    Answer : You need some ASFs to protect them. Either on land if you are close, or on Aircraft carrier if you are far.

    However, that doesn't mean i'm in full disagreement that your result isn't over the top. Further balancing will probably happen.
    Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.