The Suicide Rush - But Why Tho?

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    • The Suicide Rush - But Why Tho?

      What’s the thought process behind suicide rushing at the beginning of the game?

      I’ve been away from RTS games for probably a decade or so; I was never a forum regular; and I don’t know the current/appropriate lingo for this game, so let me define what I mean by that term: when I say “suicide rush”, I’m talking about sending one’s forces on an all out offensive that leaves one unable to defend one’s homeland cities and directly results in one’s own defeat (whether or not it also results in the defeat of the target).

      Let me be clear, as well, that this is not a whine about, or even necessarily a complaint against rushes, but rather a curiosity about the logic that fuels rushes from which the attacker can never fully recover. I do sometimes lose against a good or very unexpected rush, and I’m sure I could be better at defending against them, but that’s not my motivation behind this post, nor are those successful rushes by my opponents the type of rush I’m questioning. As an extreme example of a suicide rush of which I was both the target and the easy victor, I’ll cite the most recent rush used against me as an example to keep us reminded that I’m not writing this out of “butt-hurt” feelings.

      I want to also be clear that I’m not opposed to the (non-suicide) rush strategy in general. I think that in the correct circumstances, it can absolutely be the correct approach. In fact, I have used and will continue to use rushes when appropriate, and even when I don’t rush, I’m an aggressive expander by nature. So, I’m not at all advocating that everyone “sit back and turtle” or build for a period of time before attacking at all. By all means, do what works in the situation.

      But what about when it doesn’t, won’t, or can’t work? I’m assuming that the general goal for most people in most games is to either win or do as well/last as long in the game as possible. A suicide rush seems to virtually ensure that won’t happen, so what’s the reason that people do them?

      Here’s my latest example: I entered a new game relatively early. In this game, I happened to take a nation of considerable size and resources (rare for me, I’m a small nation guy, but this was Rising Tides, so the map was all different). A more experienced player had taken another nation of considerable size and resources sharing a long border with me before I logged in. We both had other nearby options (for targets) over which we had nation and experience advantages. This player elected, however, to rush me.

      Now, on its own, that’s not an incomprehensible strategy. I’m the most experienced other player in the immediate area but less experienced than “Player B”, we’ll call them; my country is big, has lots to offer, and could be a problem later in the game; etc. - I get it. I’m sure Player B’s initial plan was to take me out quickly and then deal with the rest of the region.

      And this is where my questions start, I guess. What’s the thought process behind losing everything you have against your opponent immediately after you select your country, leaving your own cities completely open to their own destruction? Sometimes, it’s a punch for punch, one-for-one exchange that leaves both parties so far behind that recovery takes forever and rarely really happens. In most of those situations, opportunistic neighbors will swoop in and pick the bones of both clean. Sometimes, the defender will get the better of the exchange, and the attacker who initiated the rush will be out of the game while the defender is left to clean up the mess. Then there are suicide rushes in which the failure is so complete that the defender is not even as disrupted by the rush as the defender would have been if they had themselves been the attacker. That’s what happened in the Player B scenario: by Day 3, I never lost a city, gave up only ever a total of three open territories, defeated every one of Player B’s units, and have taken 4 of Player B’s 6 cities (the other two will soon follow), including their capital.

      The point isn’t a comparison of Player B and I. They are a more experienced player, and I’m sure they are better at the game than me, in general. So, why would they, and why does anyone, do the suicide rush? Obviously, you can’t always know from the beginning that a rush won’t work against someone, but you should at least have an idea of whether or not it will. And, regardless of what you originally thought, you should be able to determine relatively early that it’s not working and will not work, and you should adjust accordingly.

      This huge wall of text has all been in an effort to clarify my one main question: Why do people conduct the suicide rush?
    • Well what exactly do you consider a suicide rush? other than a failed rush? this you never really clarify that :D
      If you simply mean a Rush on day 2/3; thats perfectly viable because if your neighbor doesnt expect it he wont be able to defend it and if done properly/fast enough you will barely suffer any casualties
      about leaving yourself open: most players are rather... passive and even then you usually can win when you're outnumbered
      I am the basline for opinions
    • Okay, so, I'll try to clarify. When you rush (and by rush I mean starting it on like Day 1, early Day 2) you can:

      1. Win - That means you rushed well and against an opponent that you could successfully rush. Good job!
      2. Win but take such heavy losses that you can't recover to continue well in the game - So, this is not actually a "failed rush" in that you did beat your opponent, but if you essentially took yourself out of the game too, it doesn't seem that smart.
      3. "Tie" - You both lose all or most of your cities and/or get overrun by other countries while you're weak after rushing. Still doesn't have to be a "failed rush", but again, you kind of ended your own game.
      4. Lose - You get beat while attempting your own rush. This is both a "failed rush" and a "suicide rush".

      One other thing I should point out is that just because your rush fails doesn't mean it has to be a suicide. Maybe you start the rush just to see if your opponent can defend it, but you still end it before it goes too far if you find out he's prepared to defend well. A lot of these suicide rushes I'm talking about are clearly in trouble shortly after they make initial contact, but they never pull back. They just go headlong into the suicide, and then their game is over.
    • Hmm i rarely encouter ppl rushing me tbh but keep in mind
      1. Public matches dont really have the highest quality, you'll see that a lot of people seem to not even know the basics like entrenchment/terrain or even that mot inf is a great defensive rather than offense unit :D
      2. Sometimes ppl are just stubborn or hope that maybe their rush still could work
      I am the basline for opinions
    • I think teburu is right.
      Often it is stubborness tied with impatience.

      Theese Rushers want to go to action asap anf most of the time they realize, that defending units (esp. Infantry in cities) gain a defending boost ;)

      But it happened more than once that i got gangraped in a sandwich position between two of this kind...
      --> archive on day 3 ;)
      Dorado Games DE Game Operator
      Conflict of Nations

      "That was not me, it was already broken!"
    • I do it myself sometimes, albeit seldom. It depends on the map/country I'm playing and my mood ^^ I essentially see it as an early game gamble.

      e.g. if I'm landlocked and have four neighbours, I'll try to make diplomatic arrangements with three of them, only invest in national guard as a fallback, then gather everything I have and march straight into country number four. If it backfires, it's early enough to archive the game and move on :D :D :D

      I also recall an epic suicide rush that failed against me was while I was playing Australia a while ago. The Philippines had gathered everything they had into one big stack of Transport Ships and sent them my way. By sheer luck, they ran into the only Corvette I had built up to that point. That was a great day.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by ThePanda ().

    • In my opinion, Germanico is right here.

      I would add that players feel that they are forced to "do something" as soon as they arrive, so they launch all they have on the closest country.

      It's just an "moderately skilled" player mindset. More experienced players focus on survival and long terme growth curve. This will not change :D
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.
    • most time it is ONLY about activity of suciade player if he log take all army giv order and look what hapens next day .. or two ... so yes after its may be suciade ... and yes for defender its may be wery pain if must defend again this specialy if he have some plan and must change and he know that defend myself after smashed atacker but on end of this war he know that be lose economy on other player ... but that is about just good time ... to move and most not giv neigbours reason to visit me

      like first look what player build if nothing its must be neactive just one build must be half inactive (but there is wery easy to make mistake most if you have premium and second one not just he build first structure giv order prepare may be first recruit and look on game after some hours ... or log one or two time per day (for non stupid player and if use premium is not need be online 24 hours per day ...

      so suciade is for me only when both side is online or when is know that non posible defend or conqer

      like player A strike player B player B strike back but player C strike and doenst mater who ... but A or B be out numbered specialy in first day ... lost capital and take what left and GO GO GO MANY time do it by me when i have been 100% sure that game is lost just take army make safety way and only conqer enemy capital yes he destroy me and most becose go more player clear and liberate his capital but economic hit from me on him is realy pain for late game
    • ThePanda wrote:

      I also recall an epic suicide rush that failed against me was while I was playing Australia a while ago. The Philippines had gathered everything they had into one big stack of Transport Ships and sent them my way. By sheer luck, they ran into the only Corvette I had built up to that point. That was a great day.
      that is nice feel one time i stoped (me spain ) invasion from brazil on speed server by one covette too .. 64 enemy unit die ... yes when its see coaly member take his 2 heli and help :thumbsup:

      next day its write me brazil that im F*** gold player but i havent just time play and read it in next day ... so funny 7 unit 1 ship(and two coaly heli) again 64 .... most funny when i send after scout atack on brazil one infatry ... and he just send this suciade atack and stop play but suciade on this atack have been only fackt that he havent any ship .. so about experience ... so what one means suciade second mean like vendeta or specialy inteligent atack without experience of game
    • I really appreciate the time and consideration you all have given this. Thank you. So far, not one response from someone who didn't bother to listen to what I was saying. Again, thank you.

      I have assumed too, that it's largely just a lack of commitment to an early game. I suppose that's the answer. I'm just not of the personality type who could suicide rush over and over again and still keep saying to myself, "Oh well! Next game!"
    • People always kamikazed on each other massively since the game exist, and it was also a thing on the other games of Bytro.

      But i would find very fun that your guess is true and that the seasons has aggravated this behaviour.

      It would be the CoN equivalent of "Black Market make people suspend their survival instincts to get a TV 25% cheaper" :D
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.
    • Hahahahahaha, unbelievable... someone just did it to me (I was Mexico) with the United States. Yep, they somehow managed to suicide rush Mexico with the United States. I have no earthly idea why. Completely emptied out the entire United States and lost every United States city, while only gaining (and then later losing) Mexicali and Reynosa. By Day 7. Now, to be fair, that's a little bit of an exaggeration. I've not reached and taken NY or DC yet, but I'm on my way, and I know they are empty because I have planes overhead and corvettes off the coast.

      Now, I understand I'm rehashing a point that's already been made, and i know this sounds like self-back-patting (and probably is, a bit), but there's a reason I'm still typing it. The U.S. can be tricky to get on the country selection screen. You have to get in the game early and then kind of still get lucky. Because, whether you or I personally thinks the US is a good country to play, there's no argument that it gets selected quickly. I've entered over 50 games and only ever seen it available to me once.

      So this guy gets in the game, and successfully gets the US, which he obviously wanted, because he had all the countries to pick from, and that's what he picked. He then takes the opportunity to play the nation he wanted probably most, and he uses that opportunity to suicide rush. WHAT? WHY?! The player wasn't brand new. They weren't high ranking, and they were lower rank than me, but not by much. They'd obviously played more than a handful of games before.

      Now, the US is arguably stronger than Mexico out of the gate, so a well-executed rush is not a completely unreasonable idea. This wasn't that, though. And, once again, in true suicide rush style, the player didn't stop rushing even LONG after it was painfully clear that the rush was not going to work.

      So, just when we thought we kind of had a grasp on the psychology behind the suicide rush, here comes this player. They had started a coalition, so they presumably didn't intend to die and leave the game by Day 6. They presumably got the country they wanted. They were not forced into a rush by game circumstances or country conditions. I suppose it could still have been the "if it works, great; if not, meh" mindset, but I would think getting your top pick of countries would negate that at least a little bit. And, as always, the eternal question, "Why not pull back when you see it is failing miserably?" (Oh, and it wasn't a "set it and forget it scenario", they were clearly manually manipulating some units.)

      The post was edited 1 time, last by PerigeeNil ().

    • You ask yourselves questions a skilled player asks himself. I question this pattern of thought goes through the brain of people with 0.3 K/D ratio and a life expectancy of 6 days on maps.
      Running an online alliance is pretty much like running a small company, except you need to find other way than money to keep your employees productive. May they play or work, they are humans.
    • In addition to inexperienced players who just want to see fast action, there is another possiblity for early rushes. There are players who mainly play for the ranking and join countless maps and then rush to earn ranking points and to level up quickly. It's farming XP-score.

      In this game you can find many different types of players: Role player, Alliance players, XP-farming player, K/D-player, players with boredom or no plan at all, Solo player, team player etc.
    • I get suicide rush quite often, happened on both Rising Tides maps for example.

      Reason might vary:
      - realisation, that he got a 3 city country and does not feel like playing it
      - thinking a Blitzkrieg might overwhelm the neighbour and offer success
      - multiaccount who just wants to empty the country for later pickup and tries to cause most possible destruction by doing so
      - pure cluelessness
      - just farming points: join map, suicide to get some kills, join next map, rince and repeat
      - probably other stuff I can't think of currently :D