Any Cruise Missile Junkies - Seems Tomahawk actually reduces overall firepower?

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    • Any Cruise Missile Junkies - Seems Tomahawk actually reduces overall firepower?

      OK I have used Cruise Missiles before but got to point Im just firing missiles everywhere instead of tearing up planes. So I have been doing more adv levl research than before.

      CM lvl1 - 10 HP soft/30 hard - 200 range like 3hp (easy to get shot down)

      CM lvel2 - 10 HP soft / 35 hard - 200 range like 4 hp (ehh better chance to get through)

      CM lvl 3 - 10 soft / 40 hard - 250 range 5 hp

      Up to this point requires 1 warhead ... but next research now bumps to 2 war heads

      CM lvl 4 (tomahawk) 15 soft / 55 hard - 275 range main bump is up to 11 HP health so basically a short range/mobile Ballistic missile.

      But I guess my beef (I know sound spoiled complaining about my advanced toy ;) ) is at lvl 3 two CMs gave me combined fire power of 20 soft / 80 hard and 10 HP health now "upgraded to 15 soft / 55 hard for same amount of warheads.

      So it appears getting tomahawk is only "upgrade" ive seen that reduces your firepower. Only main advantage would be getting through advanced level AA or frigg stacks.

      Would be nice if had an option (do I want my 1 warhead CM or the tomahawk.) as not sure Id go above lvl 3 again.

      Any users of Tomahawks that can shed some light/advantages that Im missing. yeah I get added building damage but if you got cruise you already have ballistic missiles by default (assuming built launch capability - AKA Ballistic sub).
      "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him "

      aka ...The killer formerly known as BuckeyeChamp

    • im not sure about this one: but since dmg dealt is related to HP of a unit, having more HP means a lower decrease of dmg through aa? especially usefull against navy?
      what i mean: lets say 2 destroyers with an anti missile value of 3 combined get hit by a lvl 3 cm with 5HP
      thats more than 50% of its hp, means also less dmg of the missile (40% of HP left so idk 40% dmg? not sure how that translates in detail)
      a lvl 4 cm with 10hp (for the sake of easier math :D) attacking the same stack would go from 10 to 7 ( so still 70% hp so like 70% of dmg potential left)

      the only thing im not sure about here is if hp relating to unit strength also applies to missiles

      Lvl 1-3 cm pretty much more efficient against tanks and other stuff on land without AA, they’re too fragile to be of any use against ships before lvl 4, and iirc thats what they do most of their damage against: ships

      i hope that actually answered the original question? :D
      I am The Baseline for opinions

    • Teburu wrote:

      the only thing im not sure about here is if hp relating to unit strength also applies to missiles
      It does

      Buckeyechamp wrote:

      at lvl 3 two CMs gave me combined fire power of 20 soft / 80 hard and 10 HP health now "upgraded to 15 soft / 55 hard for same amount of warheads
      I guess that comparison isn't relevant because you can't stack missiles unlike all other units. What you should be looking at to make sense of this are counters against CMs at different tiers. The jump in HP for missiles between tiers is significant. If the defender isn't advancing countermeasures at the same pace as you, you pretty much have free reign - at a cost.

      Pretty sure there's some folks left here who remember the days of all out missile spamming without any planning or scouting whatsoever, and ultimately minimal economic consequences for the spammer. It wasn't fun.

    • ThePanda wrote:

      Teburu wrote:

      the only thing im not sure about here is if hp relating to unit strength also applies to missiles
      It does

      Buckeyechamp wrote:

      at lvl 3 two CMs gave me combined fire power of 20 soft / 80 hard and 10 HP health now "upgraded to 15 soft / 55 hard for same amount of warheads
      I guess that comparison isn't relevant because you can't stack missiles unlike all other units. What you should be looking at to make sense of this are counters against CMs at different tiers. The jump in HP for missiles between tiers is significant. If the defender isn't advancing countermeasures at the same pace as you, you pretty much have free reign - at a cost.
      Pretty sure there's some folks left here who remember the days of all out missile spamming without any planning or scouting whatsoever, and ultimately minimal economic consequences for the spammer. It wasn't fun.
      no ... but I can fire 2 at once...well a few sec apart.
      "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him "

      aka ...The killer formerly known as BuckeyeChamp

    • Buckeyechamp wrote:

      ThePanda wrote:

      Teburu wrote:

      the only thing im not sure about here is if hp relating to unit strength also applies to missiles
      It does

      Buckeyechamp wrote:

      at lvl 3 two CMs gave me combined fire power of 20 soft / 80 hard and 10 HP health now "upgraded to 15 soft / 55 hard for same amount of warheads
      I guess that comparison isn't relevant because you can't stack missiles unlike all other units. What you should be looking at to make sense of this are counters against CMs at different tiers. The jump in HP for missiles between tiers is significant. If the defender isn't advancing countermeasures at the same pace as you, you pretty much have free reign - at a cost.Pretty sure there's some folks left here who remember the days of all out missile spamming without any planning or scouting whatsoever, and ultimately minimal economic consequences for the spammer. It wasn't fun.
      no ... but I can fire 2 at once...well a few sec apart.
      doesnt matter if HP is too low to get past point defense
      I am The Baseline for opinions

    • I am pretty sure if missile gets through even at .1 HP it is full damage. The missile is the deliver vehicle the warhead does the damage. Ive taken good amaont of damage on a CM that barely made through frigg Air.
      "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him "

      aka ...The killer formerly known as BuckeyeChamp

    • Buckeyechamp wrote:

      ThePanda wrote:

      Teburu wrote:

      the only thing im not sure about here is if hp relating to unit strength also applies to missiles
      It does

      Buckeyechamp wrote:

      at lvl 3 two CMs gave me combined fire power of 20 soft / 80 hard and 10 HP health now "upgraded to 15 soft / 55 hard for same amount of warheads
      I guess that comparison isn't relevant because you can't stack missiles unlike all other units. What you should be looking at to make sense of this are counters against CMs at different tiers. The jump in HP for missiles between tiers is significant. If the defender isn't advancing countermeasures at the same pace as you, you pretty much have free reign - at a cost.Pretty sure there's some folks left here who remember the days of all out missile spamming without any planning or scouting whatsoever, and ultimately minimal economic consequences for the spammer. It wasn't fun.
      no ... but I can fire 2 at once...well a few sec apart.
      True, but look at this example:
      2x level 3 CMs fired at a lvl 4 SAM launcher seconds apart.
      * each CM has 5HP
      * SAM does 3 DMG

      Now to my knowledge, the AA tick deals and receives full damage when it's triggered to every target. AA vs Missile being the exception though because the missile only delivers its damage on impact. So both CMs receive full damage from AA. With a little randomness let's say each CM has about half its HP left. And that was just the AA's ranged tick. Remember, when you directly target AA it will fire again just before impact (Point Defense). You're not getting a lot of bang for you buck here, if at all.

      Now with 1x lvl 4 CM against a lvl 4 SAM launcher, things look a little different. With 11HP I'm guessing it should get through with around 50% HP left after both AA shots got in.

    • Teburu wrote:

      doesnt matter if HP is too low to get past point defense
      No but its to your point about tanks. Say I only have 2 warheads in stock waiting for builds.

      A tank stack rolls in .. currently I would fire 1 see the impact then the 2nd. so if 1 Tank and 2 inf just say damage gets split on 10 hp inf /40 hp tank so barely ding inf but take out half tank... then fire 2nd CM get same effect and most likely took out tank and maybe down to 1.5 inf. than strike with my SF stack easy peasy.

      Now with Tomahawk I have 1 shot at 15/55 overall that damage is going to be less than the two seperate lvl 3 missiles.

      In addition.. I now have less flexibility. say someone rushes two mini RCV /Inf stacks. lvl 3 I could fire at both stacks and basically repeat attack above.

      its just basically a whole new type of weapon and odd jump 5 to 11 HP (which makes sense as 2 costs warheads now but damage doesnt go up near the damage of double the warheads; which would be more realistic but probably was two powerfull) so Id rather see the lvl 4 one warhead maybe 6 - 7 HP and same damage. But in general probably wont do this lvl 4 again as now have to build twice the warheads.

      And yes better against NAvy with AA and/or ground AA I guesse .... but even if just mobile AA or SAM they would need like 2 or 3 stacked to stop a lvl 3 CM. and even if they had that I would still have capability to lob 1st CM trigger AA and then lob 2nd in when AA is dead.

      With a 11 HP Tomahawk Im still not getting through against a 5 stack with decent AA. My officer / 4 frig for sure would shoot down.... your 2 frigg / 3 destroyer would most likely shoot down.

      So Tomahawk would be helpfull against maybe a 2 -3 stack of ships compared to lvl 3.
      "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him "

      aka ...The killer formerly known as BuckeyeChamp

    • ThePanda wrote:

      Of course none of this matters if you're just firing at Motorized Infantry :D
      thats a complete waste of missiles. and if you read above clearly said not firing at inf and once armor out strike with SF.

      And from what I have experienced decreased HP does not effect damage. once I had a ship sunk on .1 of a lvl 3 CM.
      "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him "

      aka ...The killer formerly known as BuckeyeChamp

    • Buckeyechamp wrote:

      ThePanda wrote:

      Of course none of this matters if you're just firing at Motorized Infantry :D
      thats a complete waste of missiles. and if you read above clearly said not firing at inf and once armor out strike with SF.
      And from what I have experienced decreased HP does not effect damage. once I had a ship sunk on .1 of a lvl 3 CM.
      That last part was a joke, don't take it serious ;D

      Point is, what I mentioned is obviously only relevant if AA is in the mix. If your target has no AA then there's no need to advance your CMs beyond lvl 3. But since CON is all about adapting and arms racing, I reckon you'd eventually run into someone with capable defense.

    • Teburu wrote:

      tbh; i dont really use cms
      but then again, im also the kinda guy who refuses to use any consumables in games and just hoards them just in case :D
      they do consume a lot of resources. And not one for wasting units but when you think about it the missiles are basically mini kamakazi airplanes and I would never sacrifice planes like this. But I already have 126 real units so now just building warheads ;-).

      In addition big benefit is unrealistic instant delivery to any capable unit around the world. I dont have to fly or sail this thing.
      "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him "

      aka ...The killer formerly known as BuckeyeChamp

    • Teburu wrote:

      ThePanda wrote:

      Buckeyechamp wrote:

      And from what I have experienced decreased HP does not effect damage. once I had a ship sunk on .1 of a lvl 3 CM.
      From my observations it does. Or maybe that's changed recently? Haven't tried it in a while tbh
      certainly needs to be tested then; guess ima build some cms at some point
      * starts building secret weapons labs *

    • Teburu.. you may be right about missile partial damage ... was watching a partners at was partially destroyed and seemed to have less impact; but not sure; as then my next hit was more than expected (so HP damage seems to have a rondom factor somethimes ;) . Was taking out a Aircraft carrier so took a couple
      "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him "

      aka ...The killer formerly known as BuckeyeChamp

    • Buckeyechamp wrote:

      Teburu.. you may be right about missile partial damage ... was watching a partners at was partially destroyed and seemed to have less impact; but not sure; as then my next hit was more than expected (so HP damage seems to have a rondom factor somethimes ;) . Was taking out a Aircraft carrier so took a couple
      I can confirm that damage definitely often has a random component, which also seems to be associated with unit level; I once sent my level 5 ASFs into an engagement with equal level ASFs and they lost twice as much health, so that type of engagement also seems to favor the defender as purported.

    • yeah its really bad with planes ... 1 game was prepared to sacrifice a good part of my SF against a ASF just to get it out and was shocked that it did like half the damage it should have. ground units are pretty consistent but planes and ships who knows. even on some airstrikes 1 bombing will be less than expected damage than the next more than expected; guesse it all averages out but sometimes frustrating as I like to attack with the bare necessary force and mad when left with .2 hp of something when clearly should have ben gone (yes I do account for enchremnt bonuses)
      "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him "

      aka ...The killer formerly known as BuckeyeChamp