The state of artillery. Multiple Rocket Launcher dominating

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    • The state of artillery. Multiple Rocket Launcher dominating

      Multiple Rocket Launcher is the only artillery you really need. But why is that? What makes Towed Artillery and Mobile Artillery so obsolete? And what changes could be done to give these units a purpose?
      We are looking at the power of a ranged unit compared to other ranged units, not compared to tanks/infantry.

      First of all, the Mobile Artillery outranges the Towed Artillery and the Multiple Rocket Launcher outranges both. There are few exception days when that is not the case. This makes the MRL inherently better than the other artilleries. However we can try to make MA and TA somewhat viable while keeping the range difference.

      Secondly, another important difference are the building requirements, each type of artillery requires one more army base level to produce. An upgrade from TA to MA in terms of buildings cost 1.250 supplies, 750 components, 1.500 fuel, 500 electronics and 5.500 money (+1d 8h). Another upgrade to MRL (army base lv4) costs 2.000 supplies, 1.000 components, 250 rares, 2.000 fuel, 750 electronics and 7.500 money (+1d 10h). These are the cost to unlock the production of better artillery. Clearly these costs aren't that much of a deal. While it is not free I have never seen anyone say "the building requirements are too expensive, I will not produce this unit".
      On the other hand, the construction time of these buildings is much more important. Around 36hours (including morale penalty) each, this is especially important at the start of the game as it means you get to produce MA 36hours after TA and after another 36hrs you get to produce MRL. In other words: by waiting 36 hours you get access to a considerably stronger artillery that makes the previous artillery obsolete. Can you win a war within 36 hours with 2-5 low leveled artillery? If you don't these artilleries will become wasted resources as they stand very little chance to superior artillery. This is why it is much more beneficial to work straight towards MRLs.

      Third, mobility and transport is another significant aspect of units. However they are less important at the start of the game due to the small size of your nation removing the need for airlift. Small nation = less moving needed.
      Here is a chart that shows at which day a mobility feature unlocks (european doctrine) to give us a general idea of the mobility of artilleries:

      Speed in open terrain
      Research unlocked on which day1.00 Speed1.30 Speed1.50 SpeedAir transportAirlift via Helicopter
      Towed ArtilleryDay 1//Day 1Day 15
      Mobile Artillery/Day 3/Day 24/
      Multiple Rocket Launcher/Day 5Day 13Day 17/





      While speed certainly isn't the most important attribute of artillery, it shouldn't be forgotten. The better the artillery the higher the speed, no surprise there. Interestingly enough, we see very little speed increase. 2 Artilleries have the same movement speed the entire game, while all other units in the game have some growth in that department.
      Air transport is fairly meaningless in the early game, especially when playing without a team in publics, because not only is your nation too small for the need of air transport to exist, but also due to lack of airports. Thus having air transport from day 1 is only a minor advantage, barely worth a mention.
      Airlift via helicopter on the other hand is very interesting, it grants the most possible mobility on a ground unit. But can you make use of it with artillery? In combat situations it is 60 mins - one entire combat tick - of doing nothing. For comparison: on day 15 the Towed Artillery has 65km range, thats more than enough for enemy infantry (1.3 speed) to reach the TA in enemy territory. In your own territory the enemy infantry won't reach you in 1 hour. We have to keep in mind that airlift via helicopter is unlocked on day 15, well beyond early game when the TA is supposed to have value.

      Fourth, let's take a look at the cost efficiency of the artilleries: here are 3 graphs to show the production costs, damage values and how much each point of damage costs in resources.
      An unit that deals 10 soft damage and costs 1.000 supplies to produce means each point of soft damage costs 100 supplies: 100supplies/dmg. The lower this number is the more damage-cost efficient the unit is. This helps us to compare the different units.




      Day 5Soft DamageHard Damage
      Towed Artillery Lv2
      1.000 supplies
      500 electronics
      4 dmg


      250 supplies/dmg
      125 electronics/dmg
      3 dmg


      333 supplies/dmg
      166 electronics/dmg
      Mobile Artillery Lv1


      1.400 supplies
      1.400 electronics
      4 dmg


      350 supplies/dmg
      350 components/dmg
      4 dmg


      350 supplies/dmg
      350 components/dmg
      Multiple Rocket Launcher Lv1


      1.500 supplies
      750 electronics
      4,5 dmg


      333 supplies/dmg
      166 electronics/dmg
      4 dmg


      375 supplies/dmg
      187 electronics/dmg







      Day 17Soft DamageHard Damage
      Towed Artillery Lv4
      1.100 supplies
      650 electronics
      5 dmg


      220 supplies/dmg
      130 electronics/dmg
      3,5 dmg


      314 supplies/dmg
      185 electronics/dmg
      Mobile Artillery Lv4


      1.700 supplies
      1.625 components
      5,5 dmg


      309 supplies/dmg
      295 components/dmg
      6 dmg


      283 supplies/dmg
      270 components/dmg
      Multiple Rocket Launcher Lv4


      1.750 supplies
      900 electronics
      6 dmg


      291 supplies/dmg
      150 electronics/dmg
      6 dmg


      291 supplies/dmg
      150 electronics/dmg






      Day 27Soft DamageHard Damage
      Towed Artillery Lv7
      1.250 supplies
      850 electronics
      8.5 dmg


      147 supplies/dmg
      100 electronics/dmg
      4 dmg


      312 supplies/dmg
      212 electronics/dmg
      Mobile Artillery Lv6


      1.900 supplies
      1.800 components
      6,5 dmg


      292 supplies/dmg
      276 components/dmg
      8 dmg


      237 supplies/dmg
      225 components/dmg
      Multiple Rocket Launcher Lv5


      2.250 supplies
      1.100 electronics
      7 dmg


      321 supplies/dmg
      157 electronics/dmg
      7 dmg


      321 supplies/dmg
      157 electronics/dmg

      All numbers are taken from the European doctrine.


      Key takeaways:

      - Towed Artilleries are THE anti-Infantry artillery. Not only do they yield the highest damage but also the best cost efficiency. However, up until day 27 the difference in cost efficiency is very minor compared to the MRL: 33%. Up until day 27 the Towed artillery is only 33% more cost efficient than MRL. This is barely a difference considering how overall stronger the MRL is. Furthermore infantries are rarely the main target to kill. Infantries are often spammed in masses but they are also the least dangerous unit on the offense. Tanks, Anti Air and other artilleries are priority targets and they are hard targets, against which the Towed Artillery does badly.

      - The longer a game goes the better are MA at destroying hard targets. They are also the only artillery to not use electronics.

      - MRL don't differentiate between soft and hard targets. Excluding the day 27 comparison with Towed Artillery, MRL aren't that less efficient than their counterparts: Up to 33% less efficient. I gladly pay 33% more ressources for a unit that is good vs Infantry and tanks AND has the superior range.

      - Only in late game do the differences in cost efficiency become apparent. The same time players have an abundance of resource and worry less about economy and resource efficiency. The cost efficiency matters much more when resources are sacre: in the early game. The difference in cost efficiency is only about 33%. Compared to late game: 35-100%.


      To conclude:

      I like how each artillery has an identity, they are more than artillery 1, artillery 2 and artillery 3:

      Towed Artillery: early and cheap Artillery, anti-infantry, high mobility: early air transport and later air lift.

      Mobile Artillery: doesn't need electronics, anti-armor, tanky, unmobile.

      MLR: all rounder of the artilleries, expensive

      While we can clearly find strengths of Towed Artillery and Mobile Artillery, they are significantly weaker than the MRL. Mostly thanks to the range difference, but also because the MRL doesn't have clear weaknesses(compared to the other artilleries). Why go for TA or MA when the far superior MRL is available at little to no drawbacks? This is why I would like to suggest changes to the artilleries to make TA and MA viable options compared to the MRL.
    • List of suggestions:
      Keep in mind that I am looking at artillery exlusively, forgetting infantry, tanks, etc.
      Here is a list of suggestions, I do not suggest for all to be implemented but rather chose a few.

      A) Give Towed Artillery low radar signature. This allows the TA to operate with a shorter range than other artilleries by simply not being seen. When playing on the defence in your own territory you can be invisible to your opponent thanks to low radar signature. On the offense your artilleries are seen on enemy territory either way. As such towed Artillery will be more defensive focused. This fits the concept of cheap defensive units, similar to infantry and national guard.
      Furthermore it reinforces the idea of early game unit. Only from day 14 onwards can mobile radar pick up low signature units. Towed Artillery viable not obsolete until day 14? That is perfectly fine for an early game unit!
      This change doesn't make TA over powered, low signature infantry aren't overpewered either, are they?

      B) Change the range of the artilleries. Currently the Mobile Artillery always outranges the Towed Artillery and the MRL always outranges both, there are only few exception days. But what if in the early game, say days 1-10, all artilleries had the same range? Towed Artillery wouldn't be outranged. Only from day 8 onwards is the Towed Artillery outranged. Similarly the Mobile Artillery won't be outranged in the early-mid game, say days 11-24. During this period both MRL and MA have the same range while outranging the TA. Afterwards, day 25 onwards, the MRL outranges every other Artillery.
      I believe there is no better way to implement the concept of early game artillery, mid game artillery and late game artillery than this way. Each artillery clearly has their time to shine, they are never not viable.

      C) Remove the speed advantage of MRL. Cap the max MRL speed at 1.30 and give the 1.50 speed to Mobile Artillery instead, not on Lv1, on later levels. Currently you stand no chance with Mobile Artillery against MRL, not only does MRL have greater range, it is also faster. Changing the speed should give you the possibility of catching up to the MRL. It will not be overpowered because on enemy territory you will never be able to catch up anyways.

      D) Give Towed Artillery the ability to airlift via helicopter much earlier, maybe even Lv1. What is an early game unit supposed to do with an ability it receives in mid game?

      E) Increase the differences in cost efficiency. As shown above there aren't big differences in costs. The only real notable one is in late game between the soft damage of Towed Artillery and MLR (118% difference). I would like to see this type of difference more, an artillery specialized in killing hard targets should also feel like one economy wise. Why are MA only slightly better at killing tanks than MRL despite being so much worse versus Infantries? There should be an economic argument when deciding which artillery to use. MRL needs to be costly for what they offer: speed, range and equally good damage. This can be achieved in numerous ways:
      - Towed Artillery and mobile Artillery cheaper and/or MRL more expensive
      - Towed Artillery more damage against soft targets; Mobile Artillery more damage against hard targets; MRL overall less damage
      These changes should be made at all tiers, especially tier 1 early game. Economic decision become much more important when there aren't many resources to use.

      F) Changing the entirety of Airlifting via helicopter. Being hypermobile is already an important identity of the Towed Artillery, however the long 60min disembark timer strongly discourages the use of it in combat scenarios. Especially because 60mins is an entire combat tick. Slightly reducing it to 45 mins would make it far less punishing (55 mins is also okay, but 45mins is a nice number). This is to guarantee that the enemy can't shoot/attack you twice while you are disembarking from helicopters. This will help the Towed Artillery to make use of its airlift via helicopter feature.
      Reducing the embarking time shouldn't break other airlift units, 45mins is still plenty of time to react to airborne troops. And its not like we see airborne troops being used all the time, a tiny buff wouldn't hurt them.

      G) Give Mobile Artillery the ability to air transport earlier and delay MRLs ability to air transport. For some reason MRL are "more mobile" than mobile Artillery. Let's change it to give Mobile Artillery a stronger midgame feeling and MRL a stronger late game feeling.

      H) Make the building requirement of MRL (and maybe Mobile Artillery) a lot more time consuming/expensive. Making army base Lv4 (and potentially Lv3) more expensive is harmless as it only affects the production of MRL and TDS. Lv3 army base doesn't even affect tanks and infantries which is very nice as I don't intend to touch infantry/tank nor the infantry/tank-artillery relation. An army base Lv4 costs roughly 2-3 MRL in resources, which is in my opinion very little. You can easily afford 1-3 army bases Lv4. You don't even have to put much thought in this economic decision. Lets make it a bit more expensive to the point you have to think: "Do I really want to spend that many resources to unlock the production of MRL?" (I am aware you already can't spam army bases Lv4).
      Making army base Lv4 (and maybe Lv3) more time consuming opens a greater time window where MRL (and mobile Artillery) don't exist, giving Towed Artillery more time to be the sole Artillery on the map.

      I) Make the Research of MRL more expensive. The MA research levels cost about 30% more than the TA research level (there are 7 Towed Artillery levels and 6 MA levels). However the MRL research levels only cost ~8% more than the MA research levels, also 1 less research level overall. Despite the MRL being significantly more than 8% stronger than the MA.


      Thanks for reading!

      Edit: I fell victim to the 10.000 character limit
    • The upkeep cost for towed is significantly lower than the other two.
      Terrain modifiers are the same with mobile and mrls but towed has -50% modifiers in forests and jungles compared to the -25% the other two get.

      --

      An additional suggestion in relation to artillery's dominance in land combat:
      Maybe we can make it so ranged units like artillery require 5-10 minutes of "aiming" in order to calculate the right elevation/ range / blah blah before they are able to shoot. This will help reduce artillery's complete dominance in land combat since right now you can yeet a shot into a stack and run away for an hour.
    • Great write-up, completely agree with your conclusions! I think the combo of D), E), G), I) would already do the trick.

      Going beyond just looking at artillery, I personally think Mobile Arty/MRL speed should even be capped at 1.3 altogether. Maybe even less. At the moment, once you've accumulated enough experience you realize that most armored close combat choices are rather pointless, which just feels like wasted potential strategies to explore. I remember when artillery in general used to be way slower and you actually had to make a meaningful choice between range advantage and army movement. This is also where the air-mobile and airlift features on artillery were infinitely more valuable.
    • Nice one.
      I don't agree towed are useless. Especially airlift day one is very good even if you have smaller country. And after couple of days you can build a lot of them surprising your enemy. I like mobility so I use trash units like recons, towed and motorized infrantry (all can airlift day 1) to quickly send them on the front. The only slow unit I like to use is tank destroyer. This combo is quick and defensive. The punch is in the air with strike fighters or helicopters, eventually both. Obviously that strategy is for Flashpoint map (quickest map), not for maps that last 2+ months.

      So the biggest con for towed is they cost electronics. Also they can die easely if you are against active air player. You have to babysit them all the time.

      I totally agree towed should get low radar signature.
    • I don't know but ma is already a match for mrl so buffing it makes it the only choice. Also artillery are not supposed to be equal I mean mrl already cost electronics limiting ur other choices .
      also building cost is relevant as lvl 3 barracks is important for a lot of unit but lvl4 is very limited (yet it is kind of a must if u need theater defense but still many games doesn't early on). I don't think mrl is easy to get if u r in active region with a lot of fighting around.
    • DOA70 wrote:

      What about comparison of the upkeep costs on the three units?
      I don't really consider upkeep costs a significant factor. It only becomes one when you build a large army without expanding. Most players don't pay attention to upkeep costs anyways! A small comparison: 10 Towed Artillery cost you daily 400 supplies, 10 MRL cost you daily 900. Thats 500 supplies per day for a significant combat advantage. These 500 supplies are less than what a TA costs.

      J) The upkeep costs of MRL (and MA) can be increased for tier 1 & 2 to make the upkeep cost lower as you progress the research tree. Tier 1 MRL have higher upkeep than Tier 2 and these have higher upkeep than Tier 3. This goes against every other unit in CoN. However it makes building MRL (and MA) early on more costly because their upkeep is higher (and this effect is amplified by the weak economy), this does not take away their mid/late game power where their upkeep costs stays the same. I am not a big fan of this because this is a very hidden change, few people pay attention to upkeep costs. Some might notice their economy is taking a strong hit but don't know why and are instead frustrated with the game.
      You can argue that MRL have a high upkeep and better versions make them more efficient and thus reduce this upkeep.

      DOA70 wrote:

      terrain modifiers for the three units?
      Thats a good one, I forgot about it!


      Terrain Modifiers, attack onlyOpen TerrainMountainsWoods(Sub-)UrbanJungleTundraDesert
      Towed Artillery/+25%-50%/-50%-50%/
      Mobile Artillery/+25%-25%/-25%//
      Multiple Rocket Launcher/+25%-25%/-25%//

      There are no differences between the levels. All levels have the same terrain modifiers.

      Apparently, Towed Artilleries are worse off overall. All artilleries share the same behaviour overall: Good in mountains, bad in Woods, Jungle (and Tundra). Does this mean TA, MA and MRL don't have an identitiy (because they are all the same)? Does this mean the Devs were lazy? No, because these terrain modifiers are the identitiy of artilleries. For this we have to look at the wider picture: Yes, all 3 artilleries are good in mountains and bad in woods&jungle. However Tanks are good in open terrain and bad in mountains! In other words: Changing the terrain modifiers of some artilleries might harm the identitiy of artillery as an unit class, when thinking of tanks you also think of monsters in open terrain.

      If I see airlift via helicopter I think of special forces. Units that can operate in difficult terrain because their airlift movement speed doesn't care about the mountains and jungle beneath them, they are moving fast despite operating in difficult terrain. TA having plenty of negative modifiers doesn't really reinforce this idea. When I fight in a jungle I would love to have airlift, but at the same time I wouldn't use TA to fight in the jungle. I can use TA to fight in the open terrain and desert, hurray, but I won't need airlift as much there because I am already moving fast enough.

      K) We could put the terrain modifiers on its head and give TA better terrain modifiers than MA/MRL. Remove/weaken the terrain penalties for towed artillery. I dare to say that Towed Artillery are easier to operate in woods and jungle than heavy machinery such as MA and MRL (I have no clue tbh). We can also push the Mobile Artillery and MRL towards the tanks in terms of terrain modifiers.

      Proposed Terrain Modifiers, attack onlyOpen TerrainMountainsWoods(Sub-)UrbanJungleTundraDesert
      Towed Artillery/+50%/////
      Mobile Artillery+50%-50%-50%-25%-50%/+50%
      Multiple Rocket Launcher+25%-25%-25%/-50%/+25%



      Will this remove the terrain modifiers "identity" of artilleries? Yes, but it doesn't matter. The two most iconic tanks have entirely different terrain modifiers too:
      Armored Fighting Vehicle
      Main Battle Tank
    • Mobile artillery works fine the way it is. Its relationship between offense, defence, and hp make its combat ability similar to an AFV or a mechanized infantry.

      Then that is combined with the ability to attack from a distance.

      Why change anything? Towed is a low cost unit, mobile is an unit that acts as an artillery and mid powered offensive unit, and rocket is a high powered unit that needs to be defended.

      Perhaps you just don't like the tactics that can be used to make the other units useful.
      This signature intentionally left blank
    • Basically any gamemode outside of elite challenges, mrls dominates. In elite challenges I think it is usually mobile arty doing the heavy lifting (in the 7 day peace ones). You simply cannot compete with superior range in pub games if ur running mobile arty or towed arty. If they are active enough they will just hit u and run. Yes towed is cheap but it is not going to be viable late into pub games. Mobile is also good but it still gets outranged by mrls.
    • sratenwajet wrote:

      Why change anything? Towed is a low cost unit, mobile is an unit that acts as an artillery and mid powered offensive unit, and rocket is a high powered unit that needs to be defended.

      Perhaps you just don't like the tactics that can be used to make the other units useful.
      Mind explaining the tactics where Towed Artillery and Mobile Artillery are useful? And in these tactics, why wouldn't superior artillery do better? Would these tactics still hold if the enemy has superior artillery? Are these tactics applicable to the normal gameplay, in other words are these tactics usable outside of super niche situations? Do these tactics require the best case scenario, or can you present tactics that can withstand the worst case scenario?

      Towed is cheap, correct. But as explained in my main post the cheap production cost doesn't translate into cheap power. How does cheap production help if the stats are low/weak and other artilleries aren't that much more expensive, resulting in only a slightly favoured cost/dmg: Day 5 the TA has a cost efficiency of 250 supplies/ soft damage, while the MRL has a cost efficiency of 333 supplies / soft damage. That is a difference of 33% only. A cost efficiency difference of 33% does not justify building the cheaper but significantly weaker artillery.

      Rocket needs to be defended as much as every other artillery, not sure what you are on about here.

      Of course there are scenarios where TA can be useful. For example if the enemy is running with 30 infantries at you. But then other artilleries would do the job too. You wouldn't even need artilleries, 20 infantries can do the job too. Few tanks as well. Helicopters and Strike Fighters too. This is a best case scenario where your opponent does things that are very easy to handle.

      But what if there is a stack of tanks and AA rolling at you? Suddenly all the previous options fall away. TA? too weak, too little damage. Infantries would get steamrolled. Your own tanks, maybe. Helicopters and Strike Fighters zoned away by the Anti Air. This is a more difficult situation because it requires more specific answers. Now MA and MRL would be a good answer.

      But what if, worst case scenario, the enemy has MRL, Radar, AA? You are outranged and the enemy is cruising at 1.50 speed as well. Your only option now are other MRL. Special Forces are a very niche option, high risk involved. If the enemy is active (it is easy to play against inactive opponents) he will kite with his MRL.

      My problem is, is that the MRL are good at so many things that they are a good answer to every ground situation, even other artilleries (obviously not against Air). For being such an all rounder, the MRL have too few downsides compared to the other artilleries. And the MRL even outclasses the other artilleries. Why build TA or MA if you can build the far better all rounder MRL for far too few repurcussions?
    • Mc_Johnsen wrote:

      sratenwajet wrote:

      Why change anything? Towed is a low cost unit, mobile is an unit that acts as an artillery and mid powered offensive unit, and rocket is a high powered unit that needs to be defended.

      Perhaps you just don't like the tactics that can be used to make the other units useful.
      Mind explaining the tactics where Towed Artillery and Mobile Artillery are useful? And in these tactics, why wouldn't superior artillery do better? . . . TLDR

      Towed: you want a cheapo thing that hits from far
      Motorized: you want a slightly weak AFV that hits from far

      Thanks for the long and thought out post. I made sure not to read it.

      Posts that long either are for flamewars and boredom.
      This signature intentionally left blank
    • sratenwajet wrote:

      Mc_Johnsen wrote:

      sratenwajet wrote:

      Why change anything? Towed is a low cost unit, mobile is an unit that acts as an artillery and mid powered offensive unit, and rocket is a high powered unit that needs to be defended.

      Perhaps you just don't like the tactics that can be used to make the other units useful.
      Mind explaining the tactics where Towed Artillery and Mobile Artillery are useful? And in these tactics, why wouldn't superior artillery do better? . . . TLDR
      Towed: you want a cheapo thing that hits from far
      Motorized: you want a slightly weak AFV that hits from far

      Thanks for the long and thought out post. I made sure not to read it.

      Posts that long either are for flamewars and boredom.
      Thank you for you opinion...NOT
      @Dorado If you Close the Forum and move everything to Discord you will lose my Feedback for sure.
    • sratenwajet wrote:

      ... Why change anything? Towed is a low cost unit, mobile is an unit that acts as an artillery and mid powered offensive unit, and rocket is a high powered unit that needs to be defended.
      Towed just seems to be cheap because no high building prerequisites but in masses you are spending your precious resource, electronics. And you need electronics for all airplanes for example. And if you want to use towed effectively you have to build more than a couple of them.