ECOnomy or Army

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    • KFGauss wrote:

      Here are some incomplete results I intend to study when I dig deeper into this AI vs Expansion topic. I know the image is big and the text within it tiny - This is a quick-and-diryy preliminary peek.

      To put things into context, I
      • Picked a country that has only 5 cities
      • Picked a country near the map corner
      • Picked a country that has 3 single-national-guard neutral-country neighbors
      • Picked a country that has some semi-densely populated (cities are close together) neighbors
      • Built 5 EAA before starting to build ordinary SF
        • This skews the results a bit, BUT
        • My expansion bottleneck has been needing more NG to babysit captured cities and NOT whether I could defeat the units defending the abandoned cities.
      • Benefited from most of my initial neighbors abandoning their countries and not getting replaced (this is normal (for me) in public games, ant not unusual)
      Things to notice (if you can read them at all) in the images are that
      • I screwed up and didn't write down my starting resource outputs at the start of day 1
      • Near the end of the 7th day (20:00) I've nearly doubled my Resources income
        • Supp 60 --> 140
        • Comp 67 --> 122
        • Fuel 67 --> 105
        • Elec 65 --> 109
        • Rare 40 --> 85
      • After building my initial level 1 AIs, I haven't invested any more into AIs
      • The resources that I didn't put into AIs were used to build units and other buildings (like the level 3 Hospital that's under construction).
        • The units I built will continue defending/conquering
        • In an infinite-sized map, if I continued to be successful, by continuing to conquer cities my units would increase my resource income infinitely
      Pacific_Stats.JPG

      Pacific_Stats.JPG
      Did you make all those yourself?

      Pretty impressive :thumbsup:

    • Zozo001 wrote:

      KFGauss wrote:

      Here are some incomplete results I intend to study when I dig deeper into this AI vs Expansion topic.
      Kudos for this impressive study, indeed.Since the total dataset is going to be somewhat overwhelming, I suggest you make a separate summary on how those production increments of 50,75,100% are achieved from the occupied cities. It would also be useful to track their morale.
      The 50, 75, 100% production bumps from fully capturing 2, 3, 4 countries (beyond what my own home cities originally produce) comes from these two assumptions:
      • The target Morale of a captured city is 50%
      • Occupied cities' base production rate is 50% of their original production rate
      If you and I each start with one city apiece producing 1000 Supplies/Day, and if I both capture your city and wait a while for that captured city's morale to rise and stabilize, then I'm expecting the captured city to produce 50% (occupied city penalty) of 50% (morale penalty) of 1000 supplies per day.

      That would be ( 0.5 * 0.5 * 1000 ) = ( 0.25 * 1000 ) = 250 supplies per day ---> A 25% for each resource from each/any fully captured country.

      However, . . . I'm crunching numbers and they aren't lining up with that 25%_of_original_production I thought was a simple part of the game design.

      Looks like I need to use @'playbabe''s resource-production-prediction spreadsheets to figure out where my simple assumptions don't line up with the actual game implementation.

    • KFGauss wrote:

      Zozo001 wrote:

      KFGauss wrote:

      Here are some incomplete results I intend to study when I dig deeper into this AI vs Expansion topic.
      Kudos for this impressive study, indeed.Since the total dataset is going to be somewhat overwhelming, I suggest you make a separate summary on how those production increments of 50,75,100% are achieved from the occupied cities. It would also be useful to track their morale.
      The 50, 75, 100% production bumps from fully capturing 2, 3, 4 countries (beyond what my own home cities originally produce) comes from these two assumptions:
      • The target Morale of a captured city is 50%
      • Occupied cities' base production rate is 50% of their original production rate
      If you and I each start with one city apiece producing 1000 Supplies/Day, and if I both capture your city and wait a while for that captured city's morale to rise and stabilize, then I'm expecting the captured city to produce 50% (occupied city penalty) of 50% (morale penalty) of 1000 supplies per day.

      That would be ( 0.5 * 0.5 * 1000 ) = ( 0.25 * 1000 ) = 250 supplies per day ---> A 25% for each resource from each/any fully captured country.

      However, . . . I'm crunching numbers and they aren't lining up with that 25%_of_original_production I thought was a simple part of the game design.

      Looks like I need to use @'playbabe''s resource-production-prediction spreadsheets to figure out where my simple assumptions don't line up with the actual game implementation.
      My confusion (immediately above) came from me using 100% as the target Morale for my homeland and occupied cities. When I switched to a 70% Morale target (thanks @playbabe) the figures lined up well.

      My recollection and Playbabe's spreadsheet both predict that if an occupied city and a homeland city have the same morale (and everything else is equal), the occupied city will produce 25% of what the homeland city produces.

      Of course getting an occupied city's morale up to 70% doesn't happen overnight (What is the default target-morale for an occupied city? Is it the same as a homeland city's target-morale?).

      However, even a freshly captured city with a morale of 25% produces 12.5% as much as a homeland city at 80% morale.

      So, in my current (Day 9) Pacific Theater game, if I use units (SFs and a couple of NG (that I had to pay for)) to capture a city, on the day I capture that city I get a bigger production boost than I would if I paid to build an AI in one of my homeland cities.

      And, if I don't lose that captured city to an enemy the city's production goes up as the city's morale goes up. At 50% morale it's producing 18% of what the homeland city (at 80% morale) is producing.

      @Zozo001 This screenshot lists my cities, their current production, and their current morale. The data is from the start of Game Day 9 (in a typical public game that has (too) many abandoned countries that are (too) easy to conquer).

      For the cities that had production bonus buildings (arms Industries, airports, etc.), in this table I removed the buildings effects from these figures.

      Pacific_Day_9_Cities_Prod.JPG

      The post was edited 1 time, last by KFGauss ().

    • nice numbers. always keep in mind that resources should be protected in some way.

      the game favour conquest and conquer. its not Sim City.
      One thing you need to jeep in mind is not only the production of units but as well there replacement.
      given the fact that you cinquer easily niibs and A controlled land with you SF+NG strategy. If you fight hard for some 5 cities. Such as lossing 3 SF and 10 NG. You wont see a big ROI.
      @Dorado If you Close the Forum and move everything to Discord you will lose my Feedback for sure.

    • kurtvonstein wrote:

      nice numbers. always keep in mind that resources should be protected in some way.

      the game favour conquest and conquer. its not Sim City.
      One thing you need to jeep in mind is not only the production of units but as well there replacement.
      given the fact that you cinquer easily niibs and A controlled land with you SF+NG strategy. If you fight hard for some 5 cities. Such as lossing 3 SF and 10 NG. You wont see a big ROI.
      I think that’s something lots of players forget.

    • KFGauss wrote:


      My confusion (immediately above) came from me using 100% as the target Morale for my homeland and occupied cities. When I switched to a 70% Morale target (thanks @playbabe) the figures lined up well.[...]
      Of course getting an occupied city's morale up to 70% doesn't happen overnight (What is the default target-morale for an occupied city? Is it the same as a homeland city's target-morale?).
      I think the target is 90% for homeland cities, 70% for occupied ones.
      Also, consider that (with ongoing wars giving maluses due to hostile neighborhood) the occupied land will have substantially lower morale, most of the time. Plus typically there are civilian casualties, making the population harder to catch up with that of the homeland.
      Commander Zozo001 :thumbsup:
      humble player

    • Zozo001 wrote:

      KFGauss wrote:

      My confusion (immediately above) came from me using 100% as the target Morale for my homeland and occupied cities. When I switched to a 70% Morale target (thanks @playbabe) the figures lined up well.[...]
      Of course getting an occupied city's morale up to 70% doesn't happen overnight (What is the default target-morale for an occupied city? Is it the same as a homeland city's target-morale?).
      I think the target is 90% for homeland cities, 70% for occupied ones.Also, consider that (with ongoing wars giving maluses due to hostile neighborhood) the occupied land will have substantially lower morale, most of the time. Plus typically there are civilian casualties, making the population harder to catch up with that of the homeland.
      In this (very easy, almost no opposition) game, I've been able to keep my Civ Casualties subtraction between -4 and -2, and my ongoing wars subtraction between -8 and -4.

      And, I like to (try to) keep potential opponents on their back foot by aggressively expanding (typical public games, not A-vs-A) games. My experience so far has been that using minimal defenses has worked out OK. Some day that *will* change.

    • KFGauss wrote:

      ... almost no opposition...
      I think we agree that *anything* works under that condition ;-). I also concur that civilian casualties are a minor factor, compared to morale. Still, their double whammy on the population is substantial, as growth is anemic in low morale environment.

      In my experience, when there is actual fighting against determined opposition (which is what really counts IMO), morale in typical occupied territories lingers around low 50s, at best (except near the end of the game, when it does not matter anymore). There are a few exceptions (i.e. early occupied cities near the homeland), but too few to matter much for resource production.
      Commander Zozo001 :thumbsup:
      humble player

    • Zozo001 wrote:

      KFGauss wrote:

      ... almost no opposition...
      I think we agree that *anything* works under that condition ;-). I also concur that civilian casualties are a minor factor, compared to morale. Still, their double whammy on the population is substantial, as growth is anemic in low morale environment.
      In my experience, when there is actual fighting against determined opposition (which is what really counts IMO), morale in typical occupied territories lingers around low 50s, at best (except near the end of the game, when it does not matter anymore). There are a few exceptions (i.e. early occupied cities near the homeland), but too few to matter much for resource production.
      Yeah - Other games will be different in some ways and the same in some ways.

      I put plenty of caveats into my earlier posts in this thread about the game that produced the data being a farming exercise.

      I suppose the thread has now reached the point (because of new posts) where I have to reiterate those caveats occasionally so that what the data does and doesn't tell us is clear.

      I'm not saying anything about how to defeat a true opponent - I am showing how capturing a city (in one PT map) pays off, and I'm comparing/contrasting that payoff with the payoff you get from constructing/upgrading an Arms Industry.

      Hopefully I didn't draw any unwarranted conclusions above from the data, and I certainly don't claim that capturing cities or doing the other operations will be easy in all games.

    • KFGauss wrote:

      Are the MARKET Resource amounts and prices initially available in a game like a 1X WW3 game the same at the start of every game, or are they randomized by some amount(s)?
      I think there is a slight random variation, but I'd have to dig up specific numbers for it.

      EDIT I have found my old stats taken over 3 games (not sure what type, sorry):


      		Supplies
      		Components
      		RareM
      		Fuel
      		Electronics
      Total3 146
      		2 976
      		2 148
      		1 618
      		2 145








      Min3017
      		2836
      		1887
      		1533
      		2003
      Max3277
      		3115
      		2438
      		1662
      		2403








      ΔMin%-4%
      		-5%
      		-12%
      		-5%
      		-7%
      ΔMax%4%
      		5%
      		14%
      		3%
      		12%
      Commander Zozo001 :thumbsup:
      humble player

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Zozo001 ().

    • Zozo001 wrote:

      KFGauss wrote:

      Are the MARKET Resource amounts and prices initially available in a game like a 1X WW3 game the same at the start of every game, or are they randomized by some amount(s)?
      I think there is a slight random variation, but I'd have to dig up specific numbers for it.
      EDIT I have found my old stats taken over 3 games (not sure what type, sorry):
      Thanks - That's helpful, but sadly, to do what I have in mind, I need both the amounts available and the prices.

      I'm trying to come up with a calculator (a medium-complexity interactive program) that will let someone plan what unit mobilizations, building constructions and research projects they can do in the first several days of a game. To handle the opportunities to buy from the market I need to know both quantities and prices.

      This along with a little imagination on my part will get me started.

      If a few people want to post or send me Day 1, Hour 0 data from a new game they join - They'll each become my new best friend for at least until the next person posts some info.

      PS: Yes - This is distracting me from my AA simulation project.

    • KFGauss wrote:

      Zozo001 wrote:

      KFGauss wrote:

      Are the MARKET Resource amounts and prices initially available in a game like a 1X WW3 game the same at the start of every game, or are they randomized by some amount(s)?
      I think there is a slight random variation, but I'd have to dig up specific numbers for it.EDIT I have found my old stats taken over 3 games (not sure what type, sorry):
      Thanks - That's helpful, but sadly, to do what I have in mind, I need both the amounts available and the prices.
      I'm trying to come up with a calculator (a medium-complexity interactive program) that will let someone plan what unit mobilizations, building constructions and research projects they can do in the first several days of a game. To handle the opportunities to buy from the market I need to know both quantities and prices.

      This along with a little imagination on my part will get me started.

      If a few people want to post or send me Day 1, Hour 0 data from a new game they join - They'll each become my new best friend for at least until the next person posts some info.

      PS: Yes - This is distracting me from my AA simulation project.
      And how do you plan to go about creating this “calculator”?

    • Red Snapper wrote:

      And how do you plan to go about creating this “calculator”?
      TLDR: By using my clever primate brain and my opposable thumbs.

      Longer Version: You write a Java program that has a Swing GUI.
      • The user uses the GUI to set up initial conditions, to set up assumptions for what will be captured and when, and to define when they want to build stuff.
      • The algorithms we've discussed above and some others are used to calculate the predicted results.
      • The predicted results are displayed in the GUI.

    • KFGauss wrote:

      TLDR: By using my clever primate brain and my opposable thumbs.
      Longer Version: You write a Java program that has a Swing GUI.
      • The user uses the GUI to set up initial conditions, to set up assumptions for what will be captured and when, and to define when they want to build stuff.
      • The algorithms we've discussed above and some others are used to calculate the predicted results.
      • The predicted results are displayed in the GUI.

      I took a couple of baby steps:
      • I've create a Java version of a @playbabe city-resource-production spreadsheet
      • I created a GUI that has an inputs-panel (blue below) and an outputs-panel (yellow below), and has a 20 days x 24 hours slider in the Inputs panel and has a couple of labels (day & hour, and 2x hours) that update when you pick a location on the slider (ignore the two short red lines).
      Right now, and as things evolve - Feedback and suggestions are welcome.

      Economics_Console.JPG

      Economics_GUI.JPG

      The post was edited 2 times, last by KFGauss ().