Current state of Naval

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    • Current state of Naval

      What are your opinions on the current state of navy in CoN? Are they overpowered? Underpowered? Just right? Many changes have been made in the past to balance navy but it has always been difficult to find balance

      From my experience, good navy is not consistently countered by anything other than good navy. Cruise missiles, NPA and MRLs can be viable options, but a smart player can easily avoid these with the right stack composition and movements

      If navy too strong, we could consider taking away MRL ship damage and adding a new unit to the MRL branch, a Coastal Defense System (CDS). A long range artillery designed to defend against ships, giving army-based players the naval defense they need without being forced to develop ships.

      Thoughts?
      Yee Haw
    • If you have enough coastal cities that worrying about navy is a legit concern and you dont build one of your own you kinda fucked over yourself
      you can counter navy with stuff other than navy; helis and NPA are real threats to ships tho ships tend to be the more efficient option simply because you can outrange ppl most of the time
      "a smart player with the right stack composition" is pretty much a bullshit argument cuz it can be applied to everything without really saying anything of value ....

      and to be honest: if you don't have any navy and only like 1 homeland city on the coast; exactly what is your enemy gonna do with all his ships lmao
      all these ships are time and ressources he's lacking elsewhere and navy in con only really works for 2 things in general: bombing coastal cities and killing other ships

      ships in con are imo pretty balanced simply cuz they all have their own distinct strenghts and weaknesses and you'll almost never be able to cover it all... and if you wasted the time and ressources to research all ships to max and build a shitload of them you kinda deserved your naval superiority but will probably lack the units to do much with it
      I am the basline for opinions
    • I registered on the forum specifically to make a thread like this, but you've beaten me to it! So I'll just add my general support to your second paragraph.

      I'm fairly new to CoN, but I'm a long-time player of Call of War - which, incidentally, I think is much better balanced overall.

      It does appear to me that the only really effective counter to a strong navy is an even stronger navy. And I don't think that's a good state for the game to be in, balance-wise. The main reason for it as I see it is because of AA envelopes. This applies to land-based surface-to-air units as well, and I might start or look for another thread about AA in general, but in brief the double-damage they allow against planes or missiles unbalances the whole unit roster, in my opinion.

      Aerial units don't get a double-hit against their targets; why should anti-air units get two strikes for the price of one? Ships already have an advantage over planes in that they have far more HP - they don't need the double damage as well. You can't even reccy a naval radar contact without the significant risk of losing lots of HP, or even whole units, in the process.

      I would advocate some/all of the following:

      -AA envelope only deals 50% damage (point-defence stays the same)
      -planes get some AA missile defence (chaff/flare) to reduce damage/chances of taking a hit from missiles
      -ASW Helicopters get the surface warfare kit MUCH earlier in the tech tree (say, level 3 or 4)
      -nerf (just a little bit) the AA defence of Destroyers and Cruisers (NOT Frigates - it's fine to have 1 class of strong AA ship)
      -non-missile AA should be utterly useless against Heavies (because they're too high to be in range)
      (exception: naval patrol aircraft that are on an attack run)
      -make submarines a bit more useful and/or less prohibitively expensive (again, this probably needs another thread, but for example: anti-submarine units shouldn't be able to detect submarines that are of a higher level than themselves)
      -be able to research Naval Strike-Fighters (and naval ASFs) independently, and allow them to be built on level 2 airbases, so that you can get to level up a decent anti-ship fast jet more cheaply and quickly
    • Colonel Waffles wrote:

      What are your opinions on the current state of navy in CoN? Are they overpowered? Underpowered? Just right? Many changes have been made in the past to balance navy but it has always been difficult to find balance

      From my experience, good navy is not consistently countered by anything other than good navy. Cruise missiles, NPA and MRLs can be viable options, but a smart player can easily avoid these with the right stack composition and movements

      If navy too strong, we could consider taking away MRL ship damage and adding a new unit to the MRL branch, a Coastal Defense System (CDS). A long range artillery designed to defend against ships, giving army-based players the naval defense they need without being forced to develop ships.

      Thoughts?
      You have no shame! you will try any sneaky underhanded poop burglary to backdoor sneak in MRLS nerfing.
      *** Warning: This poster may or may not be, still on double secret probation ***

      The "Get off my lawn!" cranky CoN Forums Poster - not affiliated with Dorado in any way


      "Death comes to us all. Shall I deal you in?" - DoD
    • Teburu wrote:

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Dealer of Death wrote:

      You have no shame! you will try any sneaky underhanded poop burglary to backdoor sneak in MRLS nerfing.
      If anything, the proposition above would be a buff. MRL ship damage is not utilized too much anyway, and the CDS would be a branch of MRL
      that would be still a nerf lol
      I know! He is SO DESPERATE to have nerf MRLS he is willing to convince himself black is white. He should just learn how to use MRLS and stop complaining.
      *** Warning: This poster may or may not be, still on double secret probation ***

      The "Get off my lawn!" cranky CoN Forums Poster - not affiliated with Dorado in any way


      "Death comes to us all. Shall I deal you in?" - DoD
    • Colonel Waffles wrote:

      If navy too strong, we could consider taking away MRL ship damage and adding a new unit to the MRL branch, a Coastal Defense System (CDS). A long range artillery designed to defend against ships, giving army-based players the naval defense they need without being forced to develop ships.
      I like this idea, but I think it might be better implemented as a coastal province/city improvement - ie. fixed coastal gun emplacements.
    • WalterChang wrote:

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      If navy too strong, we could consider taking away MRL ship damage and adding a new unit to the MRL branch, a Coastal Defense System (CDS). A long range artillery designed to defend against ships, giving army-based players the naval defense they need without being forced to develop ships.
      I like this idea, but I think it might be better implemented as a coastal province/city improvement - ie. fixed coastal gun emplacements.
      Yeah, you hear that FlyingColonelSkylightWaffles, no nerfing MRLS!
      *** Warning: This poster may or may not be, still on double secret probation ***

      The "Get off my lawn!" cranky CoN Forums Poster - not affiliated with Dorado in any way


      "Death comes to us all. Shall I deal you in?" - DoD
    • Coastal guns would be useless, because navy players would just tick or missile them down.

      Same goes with CDS/MRL, navy moves quicker than any ground unit, so they can easily out tick you any time.

      RG are in theory anti-navy, but in practicality, lack of range makes them pretty useless, even more since units need to fully disembark, before they can shoot after air assault.
    • Kalrakh wrote:

      Coastal guns would be useless, because navy players would just tick or missile them down.

      Same goes with CDS/MRL, navy moves quicker than any ground unit, so they can easily out tick you any time.

      RG are in theory anti-navy, but in practicality, lack of range makes them pretty useless, even more since units need to fully disembark, before they can shoot after air assault.
      Well the concept was more defensive than anything. It’s not for chasing them down, but instead you put a CDS in every coastal city to ward off angry fleets. They would also have a range equal to or greater than cruiser, but this could be tipping the balance as an anti-ship unit out ranging cruiser sounds like it could have many underlying problems
      Yee Haw
    • Colonel Waffles wrote:

      What are your opinions on the current state of navy in CoN? Are they overpowered? Underpowered? Just right? Many changes have been made in the past to balance navy but it has always been difficult to find balance

      From my experience, good navy is not consistently countered by anything other than good navy. Cruise missiles, NPA and MRLs can be viable options, but a smart player can easily avoid these with the right stack composition and movements

      If navy too strong, we could consider taking away MRL ship damage and adding a new unit to the MRL branch, a Coastal Defense System (CDS). A long range artillery designed to defend against ships, giving army-based players the naval defense they need without being forced to develop ships.

      Thoughts?
      Personally, I feel like they should become airborne. Something along the lines of rotary-wing aircraft that can't be hit by MRL. Not only would it give the ships a ton of mobility, but it is also strategic in the sense that you can send whatever sea-bearing vehicle you have to do recon in the air because it's dispensable! Why not send over your turn one corvettes to be UAVs, but better? So now corvettes would be super good early game at doing very little, and then transition to be UAVs on day 2. I mean, we all know corvettes are super good early game, so now they are good in the early to mid game! Plus, no more need for AWACS, because AWACS becomes useless! This opens up a spot for a new troop, such as a counter to MRL. Some great strategies can open up, forming a new meta of flying destroyers that can bomb your capital on turn 5 at any distance if you play your cards right. Now, I know what you're thinking. This may seem like a weird suggestion, but it makes perfect sense because it is the only way to nerf MRL and give them another weakness. There isn't a whole lot you can do until you nerf MRL. Why not do it in a way that everyone was thinking? I am just speaking the quiet part out loud, really.
    • StopThereCowboy wrote:


      Personally, I feel like they should become airborne. Something along the lines of rotary-wing aircraft that can't be hit by MRL. Not only would it give the ships a ton of mobility, but it is also strategic in the sense that you can send whatever sea-bearing vehicle you have to do recon in the air because it's dispensable! Why not send over your turn one corvettes to be UAVs, but better? So now corvettes would be super good early game at doing very little, and then transition to be UAVs on day 2. I mean, we all know corvettes are super good early game, so now they are good in the early to mid game! Plus, no more need for AWACS, because AWACS becomes useless! This opens up a spot for a new troop, such as a counter to MRL. Some great strategies can open up, forming a new meta of flying destroyers that can bomb your capital on turn 5 at any distance if you play your cards right. Now, I know what you're thinking. This may seem like a weird suggestion, but it makes perfect sense because it is the only way to nerf MRL and give them another weakness. There isn't a whole lot you can do until you nerf MRL. Why not do it in a way that everyone was thinking? I am just speaking the quiet part out loud, really.
      Not sure what the point of this was. Are you saying Navy is fine in current state?
      Yee Haw
    • Dealer of Death wrote:



      I know! He is SO DESPERATE to have nerf MRLS he is willing to convince himself black is white. He should just learn how to use MRLS and stop complaining.
      If something like the CDS was added, why would the MRLS still need their ship damage?
      That’s why I don’t see it as a nerf. You take away a feature of the MRL, but that feature just became obsolete anyway because of CDS. Currently the MRL has the ship damage so that it can, in some situations, defend itself from ships. If the sun burnt out one day, would I be making my house worse by removing the solar panels on top? The role of ship killer moved to a different unit, and there would no longer be any reason for the MRLs to keep their ship damage. The same way taking reveal stealth away from UAV wouldn’t be a nerf if ground stealth was scrapped one day.
      Yee Haw
    • just because you word it fancy doesnt make it any less a nerf; removing ship dmg and giving it to some other unit still has a negative impact on the unit simply because it decreases the flexibility; just because there is a unit specialized for engaging ships now doesnt mean there is a need to remove ship dmg from mrls
      by that logic we should remove dmg to ships from all aircraft because there already is a unit specialized for it thus making them obsolete in that regard
      I am the basline for opinions
    • Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Dealer of Death wrote:

      I know! He is SO DESPERATE to have nerf MRLS he is willing to convince himself black is white. He should just learn how to use MRLS and stop complaining.
      If something like the CDS was added, why would the MRLS still need their ship damage?That’s why I don’t see it as a nerf. You take away a feature of the MRL, but that feature just became obsolete anyway because of CDS. Currently the MRL has the ship damage so that it can, in some situations, defend itself from ships. If the sun burnt out one day, would I be making my house worse by removing the solar panels on top? The role of ship killer moved to a different unit, and there would no longer be any reason for the MRLs to keep their ship damage. The same way taking reveal stealth away from UAV wouldn’t be a nerf if ground stealth was scrapped one day.
      I know, we could leave MRLS damage to ships and take it away from MA and TA!!

      See?

      Your point isn't about anything than your hatred and the brokeback buddy opinion of nerfing the MRLS because you don't know how to use it. How can you not see that, bra?
      *** Warning: This poster may or may not be, still on double secret probation ***

      The "Get off my lawn!" cranky CoN Forums Poster - not affiliated with Dorado in any way


      "Death comes to us all. Shall I deal you in?" - DoD
    • Teburu wrote:

      just because you word it fancy doesnt make it any less a nerf; removing ship dmg and giving it to some other unit still has a negative impact on the unit simply because it decreases the flexibility; just because there is a unit specialized for engaging ships now doesnt mean there is a need to remove ship dmg from mrls
      by that logic we should remove dmg to ships from all aircraft because there already is a unit specialized for it thus making them obsolete in that regard
      This is a fair point. Come to think of it, there are quite a few units like this already, and the damage the MRLS has vs ships is not that high to begin with.
      Yee Haw
    • Colonel Waffles wrote:

      StopThereCowboy wrote:

      Personally, I feel like they should become airborne. Something along the lines of rotary-wing aircraft that can't be hit by MRL. Not only would it give the ships a ton of mobility, but it is also strategic in the sense that you can send whatever sea-bearing vehicle you have to do recon in the air because it's dispensable! Why not send over your turn one corvettes to be UAVs, but better? So now corvettes would be super good early game at doing very little, and then transition to be UAVs on day 2. I mean, we all know corvettes are super good early game, so now they are good in the early to mid game! Plus, no more need for AWACS, because AWACS becomes useless! This opens up a spot for a new troop, such as a counter to MRL. Some great strategies can open up, forming a new meta of flying destroyers that can bomb your capital on turn 5 at any distance if you play your cards right. Now, I know what you're thinking. This may seem like a weird suggestion, but it makes perfect sense because it is the only way to nerf MRL and give them another weakness. There isn't a whole lot you can do until you nerf MRL. Why not do it in a way that everyone was thinking? I am just speaking the quiet part out loud, really.
      Not sure what the point of this was. Are you saying Navy is fine in current state?
      Its sarcasm. I am making fun of navy for being underplayed because of how weak it is, and also poking fun at "don't debuff MRL." I agree with your post.