New Unit: Electronic Warfare Aircraft

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    • Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Kranzegrad wrote:

      I FOUND IT, THESE ECM AIR UNITS.
      Naval Strike Fighters?What?
      Examples: Su-27K (Various Versions)

      Su-27SKM (ECM Ver)

      Single-seat multi-role fighter for export. It is a derivative of the Su-27SK but includes upgrades such as advanced cockpit, more sophisticated self-defense electronic countermeasures (ECM) and an in-flight refuelling system.

      Info come from 'en.wikipedia.org'.
      Guns are always loaded.
    • Kranzegrad wrote:

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Kranzegrad wrote:

      I FOUND IT, THESE ECM AIR UNITS.
      Naval Strike Fighters?What?
      Examples: Su-27K (Various Versions)
      Su-27SKM (ECM Ver)

      Single-seat multi-role fighter for export. It is a derivative of the Su-27SK but includes upgrades such as advanced cockpit, more sophisticated self-defense electronic countermeasures (ECM) and an in-flight refuelling system.

      Info come from 'en.wikipedia.org'.
      I don’t see how this is relevant. The thread is about Electronic Warfare Aircraft, not ECM
      Yee Haw
    • Kranzegrad wrote:

      I found finally, these EW air units...

      List:

      EA-18G Growler (west)

      Tornado ECR (euro)

      Su-30 (Su-30MKK) (east)

      These units has air raid skills (air and ground targets).

      (ATK hard > 7.0(if is possible... you know...)
      I already listed the EWA models in my original post. Refer to the end.

      The earlier Electronic Warfare Aircraft such as the Mi-8S- and EF-10 didn’t have any attack capabilities to my knowledge

      While the modern ones like the EA-18G have offensive capabilities, giving them their full capabilities would be unnecessary and could unbalance it. The EWA already has some AA weaponry at T3
      Yee Haw
    • I just wanted to have another laugh at Waffles ludicrous idea of invisibility inducing sight range.

      I suppose that submarines sight range, like you describe infantry's sight range, depends on a group of guys in dinghies surrounding the sub, reporting back to the sub with radios too?
      *** The Creator of Zombie Farming ***
      The KING of CoN News!!!
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      "Death comes to us all. Shall I deal you in?" - DoD
    • Dealer of Death wrote:

      I just wanted to have another laugh at Waffles ludicrous idea of invisibility inducing sight range.

      I suppose that submarines sight range, like you describe infantry's sight range, depends on a group of guys in dinghies surrounding the sub, reporting back to the sub with radios too?
      I’ll explain my reasoning one more time, since it was brought up again

      The normal jamming hides all the radar contacts etc. It interferes with enemy activity on a wide scale
      The focus jamming is concentrated jamming of equipment and communications

      There are two reasons for the sight range going away
      An infantry unit has thousands of people in it. They are spread out over a decent area. I suspect they are spread out over an area of 3 units, since this is their “radius”. What do I mean by radius? Well the infantry appear to have a radius. If you stop your inf only a few minutes before reaching an enemy they will lock into combat regardless because their “radius” overlaps.
      Anyway, sight range is the cumulative view area of the unit. It’s not a single person that gives the unit sight range, but groups of scouts in the general area. This is implied because of course thousands of men are all not within hearing range of each other. If that was the case artillery and air support would wipe them instantly. When the unit is directly targeted by EWA, their comms are jammed. The only communications that they have are the essential communications that command (you) needs to know. Where are they? Are they fighting? What are their new orders? I could take it up a notch and say the unit just straight up disappears from your map, but balance is a key factor here.
      This can be communicated with their field transceivers and what not. The scouts are separated from the group, so when they spot an enemy they cannot radio this information back. They will not engage the enemy because they are not sure if they should engage and the enemy is far away. Because of this, the scouts (knowing the enemy is there) will not be able to let the entire unit know, and thus they will not be able to inform command (you) of the enemy. Current communications are short range, so if the enemy unit comes into contact and engages your unit, they will know. I am not a radio, EWA expert, but as far as realism goes this is a plausible situation that would explain why things happen in the game.
      So why can “scout” units see them? My reasoning is that CRV, for example, is designed specifically for recon. They will have powerful radios in their vehicles that may resist jamming. Another factor may be that they are maneuverable enough to drive back to the unit and let them know of the enemy presence. The trucks of motorized infantry will not be able to drive back and forth like powerful CRVs can. Unlike a infantry scout, who may have to walk back, CRV can speed back like Paul Revere yelling “The Russians are coming!”.
      What about Mobile radar?
      My reasoning for Mobile radar is based around SAMs. SAMs have a variety of radars; tracking radar, search radar, targeting radar blah blah blah. The MR thing is simple; a SAM paired with a powerful, dedicated radar will have a better time than a lone SAM. Why does it work with infantry? It just does
      Submarines use passive and active sonar. Sonar isn’t jammed because, well, you can’t jam sound. Submarine sight range isn’t something that’s clear in game. They can’t “see” far at all in the ocean, so it is likely just there for ease of use and gameplay

      Hopefully now the logic behind the no sight range thing is clear. No, the EWA is not making units invisible.
      Yee Haw
    • Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Dealer of Death wrote:

      I just wanted to have another laugh at Waffles ludicrous idea of invisibility inducing sight range.

      I suppose that submarines sight range, like you describe infantry's sight range, depends on a group of guys in dinghies surrounding the sub, reporting back to the sub with radios too?
      I’ll explain my reasoning one more time, since it was brought up again
      The normal jamming hides all the radar contacts etc. It interferes with enemy activity on a wide scale
      The focus jamming is concentrated jamming of equipment and communications

      There are two reasons for the sight range going away
      An infantry unit has thousands of people in it. They are spread out over a decent area. I suspect they are spread out over an area of 3 units, since this is their “radius”. What do I mean by radius? Well the infantry appear to have a radius. If you stop your inf only a few minutes before reaching an enemy they will lock into combat regardless because their “radius” overlaps.
      Anyway, sight range is the cumulative view area of the unit. It’s not a single person that gives the unit sight range, but groups of scouts in the general area. This is implied because of course thousands of men are all not within hearing range of each other. If that was the case artillery and air support would wipe them instantly. When the unit is directly targeted by EWA, their comms are jammed. The only communications that they have are the essential communications that command (you) needs to know. Where are they? Are they fighting? What are their new orders? I could take it up a notch and say the unit just straight up disappears from your map, but balance is a key factor here.
      This can be communicated with their field transceivers and what not. The scouts are separated from the group, so when they spot an enemy they cannot radio this information back. They will not engage the enemy because they are not sure if they should engage and the enemy is far away. Because of this, the scouts (knowing the enemy is there) will not be able to let the entire unit know, and thus they will not be able to inform command (you) of the enemy. Current communications are short range, so if the enemy unit comes into contact and engages your unit, they will know. I am not a radio, EWA expert, but as far as realism goes this is a plausible situation that would explain why things happen in the game.
      So why can “scout” units see them? My reasoning is that CRV, for example, is designed specifically for recon. They will have powerful radios in their vehicles that may resist jamming. Another factor may be that they are maneuverable enough to drive back to the unit and let them know of the enemy presence. The trucks of motorized infantry will not be able to drive back and forth like powerful CRVs can. Unlike a infantry scout, who may have to walk back, CRV can speed back like Paul Revere yelling “The Russians are coming!”.
      What about Mobile radar?
      My reasoning for Mobile radar is based around SAMs. SAMs have a variety of radars; tracking radar, search radar, targeting radar blah blah blah. The MR thing is simple; a SAM paired with a powerful, dedicated radar will have a better time than a lone SAM. Why does it work with infantry? It just does

      Submarines use passive and active sonar. Sonar isn’t jammed because, well, you can’t jam sound. Submarine sight range isn’t something that’s clear in game. They can’t “see” far at all in the ocean, so it is likely just there for ease of use and gameplay

      Hopefully now the logic behind the no sight range thing is clear. No, the EWA is not making units invisible.
      It appears, the waffle guy has never heard of a periscope, or countenanced a sub rising and a man going on deck with visual aids, both which can SEE for miles all around on a flat un-storm laden sea.

      This is just hemming and Yee Hawing to rationalize a bad idea that doesn't take into account actual sight, enhanced (binoculars and other visual aids) short burst radio with short transmission ranges that can be used in relay, and runners.

      No, there is no logic, just vapid rationalization of an otherwise decent idea, ...

      "Hey I know, let's throw in Harry Potter's Invisibility Cloak!"- Colonel Waffles

      ... and is also, overall, completely unworkable without the corresponding MRLS buff.
      *** The Creator of Zombie Farming ***
      The KING of CoN News!!!
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      "Death comes to us all. Shall I deal you in?" - DoD
    • Ok. That does make sense (for infantry, at least - probably not for a lot of other unit types, though). However, I think blocking sight range goes too far in terms of gameplay balance, anyway. I personally don't like the idea of that.

      The game already allows you to have invisible units - stealth planes (of which there are 4 types), Special Forces infantry, and Submarines*. On top of that, infantry and helicopters don't show up on most radar anyway. Does the game really need a new unit that gives everything these properties? Is it not reasonable to argue that if you want to launch a covert attack with hidden units, the game already allows you to do this? Would your suggestion not just make the existing dedicated stealth units a bit obsolete?



      *Submarines are actually not very good at being stealth, admittedly. No matter how advanced your Submarine tech is, they can still be spotted (and therefore lose one of their primary advantages) by a Level 1 Corvette! I think this is complete madness, from a gameplay-balance point of view. Stealth units should only be able to be revealed by Scout units that are at least of the same level, if not higher than the Stealth unit. (That goes for CRVs spotting Special Forces as well.)
    • Dealer of Death wrote:


      It appears, the waffle guy has never heard of a periscope, or countenanced a sub rising and a man going on deck with visual aids, both which can SEE for miles all around on a flat un-storm laden sea.
      This is just hemming and Yee Hawing to rationalize a bad idea that doesn't take into account actual sight, enhanced (binoculars and other visual aids) short burst radio with short transmission ranges that can be used in relay, and runners.

      No, there is no logic, just vapid rationalization of an otherwise decent idea, ...

      "Hey I know, let's throw in Harry Potter's Invisibility Cloak!"- Colonel Waffles

      ... and is also, overall, completely unworkable without the corresponding MRLS buff.
      The game has never been exactly clear on when and if the subs are surfacing. The existence of the AIP sub implies regular attack subs do surface, but we cannot observe this in game. Submarine “stealth” occurs because the sub is underwater. It’s the reason why a UAV flying over a sub can’t see it.
      If the sub surfaced, the stealth would go away, but it never does. This is a factor not considered in game, so I don’t see a point in considering it here. Not that direct jamming would be too useful anyway. A sub thrives on its sonar, and a EWA without naval support wouldn’t be able to locate the sub in the first place

      There is sufficient logic to explain why the game works the way it does. Specific details do not matter because we are playing Conflict of Nations. This game does not take into account the smallest details. “Why the EWA take away sight range?” “It’s because the scout’s radio don’t work and he can’t tell everyone else” “Oh ok”
      No one is going to give a shit about short range radio, relay, periscope in a game where an SR-71 blackbird can carry enough payload to level a city in the same way a B-52 can. A game where 5 TDS together can stop over a thousand ICBMs at once because of point defense. A game where a railgun shoots through an entire city to hit its target. Attack helicopters carry AA missiles in real life, but they can’t damage other aircraft in the game because balance

      There does not need to be specific, reasonable logic behind every little thing in the game. Only enough to say that something is plausible
      Yee Haw
    • WalterChang wrote:

      Ok. That does make sense (for infantry, at least - probably not for a lot of other unit types, though). However, I think blocking sight range goes too far in terms of gameplay balance, anyway. I personally don't like the idea of that.
      I think it’s a fair trade off
      The unit needs skill and activity to use, but doesn’t necessarily need it to counter. It only takes away sight range in a range of 25, so you can only really do it to one stack at a time. It doesn’t work on the move either. A smart and active player can simply move their units every time they are jammed, and sneak AA into the battlefield in the meantime. Not to mention units like CRV and MR nullify the effect.
      It might even be underpowered. There’s no way to know for sure, as we can only predict so much based on text and not action.

      if the devs used this idea, I have faith that they would get it just right. I am no dev, meanwhile they do this for a living, so they will know how to get it just right
      Yee Haw
    • Colonel Waffles wrote:

      WalterChang wrote:

      Ok. That does make sense (for infantry, at least - probably not for a lot of other unit types, though). However, I think blocking sight range goes too far in terms of gameplay balance, anyway. I personally don't like the idea of that.
      I think it’s a fair trade offThe unit needs skill and activity to use, but doesn’t necessarily need it to counter. It only takes away sight range in a range of 25, so you can only really do it to one stack at a time. It doesn’t work on the move either. A smart and active player can simply move their units every time they are jammed, and sneak AA into the battlefield in the meantime. Not to mention units like CRV and MR nullify the effect.
      It might even be underpowered. There’s no way to know for sure, as we can only predict so much based on text and not action.

      if the devs used this idea, I have faith that they would get it just right. I am no dev, meanwhile they do this for a living, so they will know how to get it just right
      ass-kisser.jpg
      *** The Creator of Zombie Farming ***
      The KING of CoN News!!!
      The "Get off my lawn!" cranky CoN Forums Poster - not affiliated with Dorado in any way


      "Death comes to us all. Shall I deal you in?" - DoD
    • Colonel Waffles wrote:

      I think it’s a fair trade off
      I don't see a trade off, to be frank. I just see one unit unbalancing the game.

      Who on Earth is ever going to bother putting the huge resources required into doing the research and building the requisite buildings for stealth aircraft, if you can achieve more or less the same thing with much cheaper units? Why would you ever use Special Forces if you can hide conventional infantry using this EWA?

      If this unit was available, everybody would use it all of the time! It would become the only way to win. And nobody would have a bloody clue what was going on on the battlefield, because nobody would be able to see each other's units, ever!

      The post was edited 1 time, last by WalterChang: language! pardon me ().

    • WalterChang wrote:

      Who on Earth is ever going to bother putting the huge resources required into doing the research and building the requisite buildings for stealth aircraft, if you can achieve more or less the same thing with much cheaper units? Why would you ever use Special Forces if you can hide conventional infantry using this EWA?
      Consider these factors
      Stealth aircraft can sneak into enemy territory undetected. They do this by themselves, and if the enemy is unprepared they will not find out. EWA cannot do what stealth aircraft does

      Units hidden by EWA will be “hidden” sure. Unlike stealth units, however, they will not have the element of surprise. When radars are jammed, the operators don’t say “Oh well” and go home. There is a big, obvious symbol showing that you are being jammed from this location. We are not talking AWACS range here. This blind spot will be maybe 100 units wide, the range of an MRL. There are only so many places units can hide within a 100 radius.
      Also consider that Spec Ops don’t take territory. It is part of their stealth aspect. I could try to sneak some motorized infantry around, but in addition to the jammer signal I think someone will notice their territory being captured

      What to do then? Well, the primary counter to EWA is one of the most common units in the game: ASF.
      ASF goes to kill EWA and it is dead.
      The EWA isn’t free either. You are paying materials for it, and it is very vulnerable

      So the element of “sneak” is not present
      They can’t turn heavy bombers stealth either because not only will the jamming signal show where the bombers are but the jammer is inactive when in the move
      Yee Haw

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Colonel Waffles ().

    • That white circle is the radius of T2 EWA. It’s not a lot. You can make 5 and create a area of jamming, but they will be very vulnerable to ASF in doing so
      Files
      Yee Haw
    • Ok, you might have persuaded me. A bit.

      I still don't like the idea of everything completely losing sight range, though. Would that would mean you could sail your troop ships right past an enemy task force without them noticing? Because that would feel a bit silly. The same goes for aircraft on patrol: if the radar and communications systems are jammed, it wouldn't stop the pilot from being able to see enemy troop/ship movements below him, and as long as his weapons systems aren't jammed as well it wouldn't stop him from attacking them. Why shouldn't units be able to attack things that they can actually see with their eyes? I think you can assume that all units already have orders to engage enemy units on sight - they don't need to communicate with central command in order to do that. Even your explanation for an infantry battalion is pretty tenuous, to be honest.

      I don't think it makes sense intuitively, and I think it's too powerful an effect from a gameplay perspective.


      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      So the element of “sneak” is not present
      They can’t turn heavy bombers stealth either because not only will the jamming signal show where the bombers are but the jammer is inactive when in the move
      Well, that depends where the target is, doesn't it?
      If it's on the coast, or within 100 'distance units' of the coast, then you could fly your EWA in over the sea (accompanied by its permanent escort of 4ASFs to stop it getting killed in one attack), and then follow it with your Heavy Bombers or Strike Fighters, which have then effectively become 'Stealth'.


      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Also consider that Spec Ops don’t take territory. It is part of their stealth aspect. I could try to sneak some motorized infantry around, but in addition to the jammer signal I think someone will notice their territory being captured
      Neither do tanks. You're effectively replacing Special Forces with Stealth Tanks, which would be much, much more powerful.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by WalterChang ().

    • WalterChang wrote:

      Ok, you might have persuaded me. A bit.

      I still don't like the idea of everything completely losing sight range, though.

      Only enemy units within 25 range of your EWA will lose sight range


      Would that would mean you could sail your troop ships right past an enemy task force without them noticing? Because that would feel a bit silly.


      If you at war with someone, your troops cannot pass through each other. Even with stealth units combat will be triggered. A naval blockade will function even when jammed

      The same goes for aircraft on patrol: if the radar and communications systems are jammed, it wouldn't stop the pilot from being able to see enemy troop/ship movements below him, and as long as his weapons systems aren't jammed as well it wouldn't stop him from attacking them. Why shouldn't units be able to attack things that they can actually see with their eyes?


      Attack aircraft like SF are poorly equipped to search for the enemy on a wide scale. The pilot doesn’t have binoculars or direct line of sight to see enemy units below him unless going in for an attack. They can attack things they see with their eyes. If you are covered by enemy EWA, and your infantry is locked in combat with enemy units, you can still send SF to attack the enemy


      I think you can assume that all units already have orders to engage enemy units on sight - they don't need to communicate with central command in order to do that. Even your explanation for an infantry battalion is pretty tenuous, to be honest.

      Infantry can’t engage enemies outside their range. They can observe the enemy miles away but that doesn’t mean they can engage, and if they can is it a good idea to do so? If you see the enemy at a distance you don’t start shooting at them immediately. You observe them, try to identify them, where they are going etc. They do have orders to engage the enemy, which is why they fight when engaged in melee. They don’t have orders to chase down the enemy. That is something I have to order them to do, not something they will do on their own

      I don't think it makes sense intuitively, and I think it's too powerful an effect from a gameplay perspective.

      In my personal opinion I think it works. If it is too powerful from a gameplay perspective it is fairly easy to balance.

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      So the element of “sneak” is not present
      They can’t turn heavy bombers stealth either because not only will the jamming signal show where the bombers are but the jammer is inactive when in the move
      Well, that depends where the target is, doesn't it?If it's on the coast, or within 100 'distance units' of the coast, then you could fly your EWA in over the sea (accompanied by its permanent escort of 4ASFs to stop it getting killed in one attack), and then follow it with your Heavy Bombers or Strike Fighters, which have then effectively become 'Stealth'.

      this is highly situational. All aircraft are revealed over enemy territory not when flying directly over it but when their patrol circle touches the enemy land. So the EWA will have to sacrifice some range to get jamming without being spotted. This also counts on your planes coming from the ocean
      Heavy bombers are not utilized often
      Unless you are in a very specific situation, your SF won’t be reaching an enemy coast without an aircraft carrier or island airfield.
      furthermore, this assumes they have no navy ships on their coast. If you have no naval defense, and have coastal cities, and on top of that no AA defense in your city, then you probably deserve a sneak attack like this

      I see this as a win for
      Corvette (Radar makes detecting EWA easy)
      Aircraft carrier (More incentive to use with the costal jam strategy)

      Yee Haw

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Colonel Waffles ().