New Unit: Electronic Warfare Aircraft

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    • Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Only enemy units within 25 range of your EWA will lose sight range
      Why? What's the logic behind that? I don't get it.


      Colonel Waffles wrote:


      If you at war with someone, your troops cannot pass through each other. Even with stealth units combat will be triggered. A naval blockade will function even when jammed

      Ok. But they'd still be able to pass within sight-range as long as they don't actually intercept their exact position?

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      The same goes for aircraft on patrol: if the radar and communications systems are jammed, it wouldn't stop the pilot from being able to see enemy troop/ship movements below him, and as long as his weapons systems aren't jammed as well it wouldn't stop him from attacking them. Why shouldn't units be able to attack things that they can actually see with their eyes?


      Attack aircraft like SF are poorly equipped to search for the enemy on a wide scale. The pilot doesn’t have binoculars or direct line of sight to see enemy units below him unless going in for an attack. They can attack things they see with their eyes. If you are covered by enemy EWA, and your infantry is locked in combat with enemy units, you can still send SF to attack the enemy
      That isn't true. Of course the pilot would be able to see an entire battalion of troops or armoured vehicles below them! Or ships, if they're over the ocean. Have you ever been in an aeroplane? You can see cars on the roads! Planes on patrol are specifically looking for targets on the ground below them. Even if the guided missile systems were jammed, they could still go in with their cannons.


      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Infantry can’t engage enemies outside their range. They can observe the enemy miles away but that doesn’t mean they can engage, and if they can is it a good idea to do so? If you see the enemy at a distance you don’t start shooting at them immediately. You observe them, try to identify them, where they are going etc. They do have orders to engage the enemy, which is why they fight when engaged in melee. They don’t have orders to chase down the enemy. That is something I have to order them to do, not something they will do on their own
      Ok, so it doesn't affect infantry all that much (unless you have mortars? Why can't they fire at something within sight-range?).
      And what about artillery? Why does that need radar and sophisticated modern communications in order to shoot at something it can see? Artillery has been used for hundreds of years, literally, without modern electronics that you can jam.


      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Heavy bombers are not utilized often
      What absolute rubbish! Speak for yourself!

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Unless you are in a very specific situation, your SF won’t be reaching an enemy coast without an aircraft carrier or island airfield.
      furthermore, this assumes they have no navy ships on their coast. If you have no naval defense, and have coastal cities, and on top of that no AA defense in your city, then you probably deserve a sneak attack like this
      Very specific, like... pretty much anywhere in Europe. Or the Middle East. Or South East Asia. Or even on the larger continental landmasses! if you're attacking a city further up the coast from your airbase, you can fly out to sea before ordering the attack so that you come in undetected.
      Ships guarding the coast will be jammed anyway, and won't see the planes either? Why wouldn't you use more than one of these EWAs to block out everything in range of your target?


      And what about Stealth Tanks?


      [Sorry man, I really hate it when threads descend into this kind of chopping and pasting mess, but I felt it necessary this time!]
    • WalterChang wrote:

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Only enemy units within 25 range of your EWA will lose sight range
      Why? What's the logic behind that? I don't get it.
      Direct jamming. Regular jamming occurs in a wide radius and affects radars etc, while direct jamming is in a small radius and interferes with communications

      Colonel Waffles wrote:


      If you at war with someone, your troops cannot pass through each other. Even with stealth units combat will be triggered. A naval blockade will function even when jammed

      Ok. But they'd still be able to pass within sight-range as long as they don't actually intercept their exact position?
      Correct

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      The same goes for aircraft on patrol: if the radar and communications systems are jammed, it wouldn't stop the pilot from being able to see enemy troop/ship movements below him, and as long as his weapons systems aren't jammed as well it wouldn't stop him from attacking them. Why shouldn't units be able to attack things that they can actually see with their eyes?


      Attack aircraft like SF are poorly equipped to search for the enemy on a wide scale. The pilot doesn’t have binoculars or direct line of sight to see enemy units below him unless going in for an attack. They can attack things they see with their eyes. If you are covered by enemy EWA, and your infantry is locked in combat with enemy units, you can still send SF to attack the enemy
      That isn't true. Of course the pilot would be able to see an entire battalion of troops or armoured vehicles below them! Or ships, if they're over the ocean. Have you ever been in an aeroplane? You can see cars on the roads! Planes on patrol are specifically looking for targets on the ground below them. Even if the guided missile systems were jammed, they could still go in with their cannons.
      Cruising altitude for an A-10 warthog is 16,000 feet. If you can see infantry from 16,000 feet, then you must be built differently or something. Being in an aero plane and seeing cars below you is quite different from being a fighter pilot and trying the same thing. Not only are fighter pilots high in the air, but they would have to tilt to get eyes on the enemy. Once you are close enough to the ground to spot enemies, MANPADs will destroy you. Infantry typically call in fire missions for strike aircraft, but it would be quite a challenge for them to do everything by themselves. I never said their weapons are jammed though. EWA does not affect a unit’s damage, only their ability to spot and engage other units

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Infantry can’t engage enemies outside their range. They can observe the enemy miles away but that doesn’t mean they can engage, and if they can is it a good idea to do so? If you see the enemy at a distance you don’t start shooting at them immediately. You observe them, try to identify them, where they are going etc. They do have orders to engage the enemy, which is why they fight when engaged in melee. They don’t have orders to chase down the enemy. That is something I have to order them to do, not something they will do on their own
      Ok, so it doesn't affect infantry all that much (unless you have mortars? Why can't they fire at something within sight-range?).And what about artillery? Why does that need radar and sophisticated modern communications in order to shoot at something it can see? Artillery has been used for hundreds of years, literally, without modern electronics that you can jam.

      You know that artillery cannot see what they are shooting at right? If artillery can see the enemy, there is something very wrong. They attack based on information relayed by other units. Whether it’s infantry calling artillery in, or UAVs spotting targets, artillery relies on other units to see for them. Before modern communication they worked with poor efficiency in comparison with modern ones

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Heavy bombers are not utilized often
      What absolute rubbish! Speak for yourself!
      It is the truth. Players do not utilize heavy bombers very often

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Unless you are in a very specific situation, your SF won’t be reaching an enemy coast without an aircraft carrier or island airfield.
      furthermore, this assumes they have no navy ships on their coast. If you have no naval defense, and have coastal cities, and on top of that no AA defense in your city, then you probably deserve a sneak attack like this
      Very specific, like... pretty much anywhere in Europe. Or the Middle East. Or South East Asia. Or even on the larger continental landmasses! if you're attacking a city further up the coast from your airbase, you can fly out to sea before ordering the attack so that you come in undetected.Ships guarding the coast will be jammed anyway, and won't see the planes either? Why wouldn't you use more than one of these EWAs to block out everything in range of your target?

      Just because your enemy has coastal cities does not mean you can send planes from the coast like it is nothing. If you are Germany attacking France, you would need aircraft carriers or islands off their coast to do this. Some countries like Algeria will already be able to do this, but not many countries can. Patrolling them to the coast first will require a lot of added effort, since you will need to do it every attack. It will also give the enemy more time to react

      Frigates spotting the EWA prior to the jam will shred it. Corvettes will immediately reveal where the EWA is. Your ASF will do the rest

      And what about Stealth Tanks?
      Stealth tanks? What?

      [Sorry man, I really hate it when threads descend into this kind of chopping and pasting mess, but I felt it necessary this time!]
      Yee Haw
    • Good evening! Sorry for the break; I had to go out for a bit.

      Now then....

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Direct jamming. Regular jamming occurs in a wide radius and affects radars etc, while direct jamming is in a small radius and interferes with communications

      If you at war with someone, your troops cannot pass through each other. Even with stealth units combat will be triggered. A naval blockade will function even when jammed

      Attack aircraft like SF are poorly equipped to search for the enemy on a wide scale. The pilot doesn’t have binoculars or direct line of sight to see enemy units below him unless going in for an attack. They can attack things they see with their eyes. If you are covered by enemy EWA, and your infantry is locked in combat with enemy units, you can still send SF to attack the enemy

      Ok, all that's fine. I still don't agree about the strike fighters and visual range, though.

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Cruising altitude for an A-10 warthog is 16,000 feet. If you can see infantry from 16,000 feet, then you must be built differently or something. Being in an aero plane and seeing cars below you is quite different from being a fighter pilot and trying the same thing. Not only are fighter pilots high in the air, but they would have to tilt to get eyes on the enemy. Once you are close enough to the ground to spot enemies, MANPADs will destroy you. Infantry typically call in fire missions for strike aircraft, but it would be quite a challenge for them to do everything by themselves. I never said their weapons are jammed though. EWA does not affect a unit’s damage, only their ability to spot and engage other units
      This bit is all academic, since you clarified that the direct jamming range (sight-range block) is only 25 from the EWA: if a Strike fighter is within this range, the EWA will be shot down anyway, no?

      But just for the hell of it: MANPADs don't destroy Strike Fighters in CoN; they damage them by 1HP per infantry unit :P
      And anyway, aircraft do have a direct visual range in CoN, within which they can spot ground units (although without identifying their number or type in detail) and ships (which they can identify exactly), as well as whether or not they are enemies. Aircraft on "Patrol" mode are ordered to attack enemy units on sight, so I think they should still attack enemy units that they see. There's no point in arguing about at what altitude they are flying; it's not relevant.

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Infantry can’t engage enemies outside their range. They can observe the enemy miles away but that doesn’t mean they can engage, and if they can is it a good idea to do so? If you see the enemy at a distance you don’t start shooting at them immediately. You observe them, try to identify them, where they are going etc. They do have orders to engage the enemy, which is why they fight when engaged in melee. They don’t have orders to chase down the enemy. That is something I have to order them to do, not something they will do on their own

      You know that artillery cannot see what they are shooting at right? If artillery can see the enemy, there is something very wrong. They attack based on information relayed by other units. Whether it’s infantry calling artillery in, or UAVs spotting targets, artillery relies on other units to see for them. Before modern communication they worked with poor efficiency in comparison with modern ones
      OK. I assume you will still be able to use artillery-types to target cities and province centre-points, even if they are blinded?

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Heavy bombers are not utilized often
      It is the truth. Players do not utilize heavy bombers very often

      Well, that's their fault! And anyway, that's not an argument.

      I am still uneasy with the idea of conventional Heavy Bombers and Strike Fighters being able to become almost-Stealth Bombers with the addition of this EWA unit. How much will it cost? What level of airbase will you need to build it? I would suggest it is at least a Level 4 airbase, to put in on a par with AWACS, but more expensive to research and mobilize.

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Unless you are in a very specific situation, your SF won’t be reaching an enemy coast without an aircraft carrier or island airfield.
      furthermore, this assumes they have no navy ships on their coast. If you have no naval defense, and have coastal cities, and on top of that no AA defense in your city, then you probably deserve a sneak attack like this

      Just because your enemy has coastal cities does not mean you can send planes from the coast like it is nothing. If you are Germany attacking France, you would need aircraft carriers or islands off their coast to do this. Some countries like Algeria will already be able to do this, but not many countries can. Patrolling them to the coast first will require a lot of added effort, since you will need to do it every attack. It will also give the enemy more time to react

      Frigates spotting the EWA prior to the jam will shred it. Corvettes will immediately reveal where the EWA is. Your ASF will do the rest

      I don't agree with you on this point. It's really simple to route your aircraft out over the sea so that you can approach a target (relatively) undetected. And it's very rare (much rarer than the use of Heavy Bombers, I'd say) for players to leave Frigates next to every one of their coastal cities.
      If you can't use the EW Aircraft to combat Frigates, then that's most of its usefulness gone anyway, as far as I see it!

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Stealth tanks? What?

      Stealth Tanks. The monsters you will be creating:

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Also consider that Spec Ops don’t take territory. It is part of their stealth aspect. I could try to sneak some motorized infantry around, but in addition to the jammer signal I think someone will notice their territory being captured
      Tanks don't capture territory either. Will you not be creating a scenario where players can drive battle tanks around in the same conditions as they currently only can with Special Forces infantry?

      (Enjoying this, by the way. Haven't done this sort of mindless internet debating for many a long time!)
    • WalterChang wrote:

      Good evening! Sorry for the break; I had to go out for a bit.

      Now then....

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Direct jamming. Regular jamming occurs in a wide radius and affects radars etc, while direct jamming is in a small radius and interferes with communications

      If you at war with someone, your troops cannot pass through each other. Even with stealth units combat will be triggered. A naval blockade will function even when jammed

      Attack aircraft like SF are poorly equipped to search for the enemy on a wide scale. The pilot doesn’t have binoculars or direct line of sight to see enemy units below him unless going in for an attack. They can attack things they see with their eyes. If you are covered by enemy EWA, and your infantry is locked in combat with enemy units, you can still send SF to attack the enemy

      Ok, all that's fine. I still don't agree about the strike fighters and visual range, though.

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Cruising altitude for an A-10 warthog is 16,000 feet. If you can see infantry from 16,000 feet, then you must be built differently or something. Being in an aero plane and seeing cars below you is quite different from being a fighter pilot and trying the same thing. Not only are fighter pilots high in the air, but they would have to tilt to get eyes on the enemy. Once you are close enough to the ground to spot enemies, MANPADs will destroy you. Infantry typically call in fire missions for strike aircraft, but it would be quite a challenge for them to do everything by themselves. I never said their weapons are jammed though. EWA does not affect a unit’s damage, only their ability to spot and engage other units
      This bit is all academic, since you clarified that the direct jamming range (sight-range block) is only 25 from the EWA: if a Strike fighter is within this range, the EWA will be shot down anyway, no?
      But just for the hell of it: MANPADs don't destroy Strike Fighters in CoN; they damage them by 1HP per infantry unit :P
      And anyway, aircraft do have a direct visual range in CoN, within which they can spot ground units (although without identifying their number or type in detail) and ships (which they can identify exactly), as well as whether or not they are enemies. Aircraft on "Patrol" mode are ordered to attack enemy units on sight, so I think they should still attack enemy units that they see. There's no point in arguing about at what altitude they are flying; it's not relevant.

      The whole concept of sight range for different units can be confusing. As far as planes go they don’t really need to worry about being jammed

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Infantry can’t engage enemies outside their range. They can observe the enemy miles away but that doesn’t mean they can engage, and if they can is it a good idea to do so? If you see the enemy at a distance you don’t start shooting at them immediately. You observe them, try to identify them, where they are going etc. They do have orders to engage the enemy, which is why they fight when engaged in melee. They don’t have orders to chase down the enemy. That is something I have to order them to do, not something they will do on their own

      You know that artillery cannot see what they are shooting at right? If artillery can see the enemy, there is something very wrong. They attack based on information relayed by other units. Whether it’s infantry calling artillery in, or UAVs spotting targets, artillery relies on other units to see for them. Before modern communication they worked with poor efficiency in comparison with modern ones
      OK. I assume you will still be able to use artillery-types to target cities and province centre-points, even if they are blinded?
      Yes. Artillery can still fire, only you can’t see things to fire at. Also, they can fire at any unit that has been revealed, like for example an infantry that is in melee combat with your nearby infantry

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Heavy bombers are not utilized often
      It is the truth. Players do not utilize heavy bombers very often
      Well, that's their fault! And anyway, that's not an argument.

      I am still uneasy with the idea of conventional Heavy Bombers and Strike Fighters being able to become almost-Stealth Bombers with the addition of this EWA unit. How much will it cost? What level of airbase will you need to build it? I would suggest it is at least a Level 4 airbase, to put in on a par with AWACS, but more expensive to research and mobilize.

      Something like lvl 3. Heavy bombers and SF will still get shredded by AA point defense or ASF. The EWA will be one of the more expensive units, costing similar to ASF but requiring considerably more electronics.
      Consider also the combat radius of EWA. It will not be able to follow Heavy bombers far.

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Unless you are in a very specific situation, your SF won’t be reaching an enemy coast without an aircraft carrier or island airfield.
      furthermore, this assumes they have no navy ships on their coast. If you have no naval defense, and have coastal cities, and on top of that no AA defense in your city, then you probably deserve a sneak attack like this

      Just because your enemy has coastal cities does not mean you can send planes from the coast like it is nothing. If you are Germany attacking France, you would need aircraft carriers or islands off their coast to do this. Some countries like Algeria will already be able to do this, but not many countries can. Patrolling them to the coast first will require a lot of added effort, since you will need to do it every attack. It will also give the enemy more time to react

      Frigates spotting the EWA prior to the jam will shred it. Corvettes will immediately reveal where the EWA is. Your ASF will do the rest
      I don't agree with you on this point. It's really simple to route your aircraft out over the sea so that you can approach a target (relatively) undetected. And it's very rare (much rarer than the use of Heavy Bombers, I'd say) for players to leave Frigates next to every one of their coastal cities.
      If you can't use the EW Aircraft to combat Frigates, then that's most of its usefulness gone anyway, as far as I see it!

      A few issues:
      First, your planes will return over enemy airspace. You can start the attack from the ocean, but once thy attack they will directly return to their base, making them vulnerable. You cannot do this automatically. If you wanted to do this, let’s say your SF attacks once every hour. First you need to patrol them in the ocean, then you need to wait for them to get there, then you need to send them to attack, then you need to tell them to stop after attacking so they don’t try to attack again via the direct route. Repeat every hour. If the enemy is inactive enough to let this happen and you are willing to do this then you’ve earned yourself the sneak attack.

      Even a corvette will reveal the EWA

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Stealth tanks? What?
      Stealth Tanks. The monsters you will be creating:

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Also consider that Spec Ops don’t take territory. It is part of their stealth aspect. I could try to sneak some motorized infantry around, but in addition to the jammer signal I think someone will notice their territory being captured
      Tanks don't capture territory either. Will you not be creating a scenario where players can drive battle tanks around in the same conditions as they currently only can with Special Forces infantry?
      Well, is this necessarily a bad thing? Armor is not useful to many players in the meta. Units like tanks are considered useless because they can just be slaughtered with artillery or Air Force. If they can sneak around in this way, it will give them more purpose. The point still stands that there is no element of surprise. The tanks aren’t really stealth, only the enemy cannot see them. They know the tanks are there because of the jamming signal
      Yee Haw
    • Colonel Waffles wrote:

      jamming. Regular jamming occurs
      I still don't agree
      differently or something. Being in an aero
      different units can be confusing. As far
      they are going etc. They do
      shooting at right? If
      OK. I assume still fire, only you
      often
      It is the truth
      their fault! And
      Something like
      Consider also

      the coast like it is nothing. If you are Germany
      jam will shred it

      agree
      few issues: First
      Even a corvette
      tanks? What?
      you will be creating
      I could try to sneak
      they can just be slaughtered
      Right. I cut some of the conversation for brevity and ease of reading. Hope you don't mind.

      The main things I'm concerned about are: whether this thing might obviate/reduce the special benefits of existing stealth units in the game, thereby making them pointless to ever build given their high expense; and whether or not it's actually going to be any use against ships, if Frigates will kill it before it ever gets into it's own effective range?

      I like the idea; I'm not trying to shoot it down. But I'm not convinced on those two points.
    • WalterChang wrote:

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      jamming. Regular jamming occurs
      I still don't agree
      differently or something. Being in an aero
      different units can be confusing. As far
      they are going etc. They do
      shooting at right? If
      OK. I assume still fire, only you
      often
      It is the truth
      their fault! And
      Something like
      Consider also

      the coast like it is nothing. If you are Germany
      jam will shred it

      agree
      few issues: First
      Even a corvette
      tanks? What?
      you will be creating
      I could try to sneak
      they can just be slaughtered
      Right. I cut some of the conversation for brevity and ease of reading. Hope you don't mind.
      The main things I'm concerned about are: whether this thing might obviate/reduce the special benefits of existing stealth units in the game, thereby making them pointless to ever build given their high expense; and whether or not it's actually going to be any use against ships, if Frigates will kill it before it ever gets into it's own effective range?

      I like the idea; I'm not trying to shoot it down. But I'm not convinced on those two points.
      Like I stated before, I think the main reason jammed units don’t compare to stealth units is the fact that their presence is known. If the EWA can jam the he frigate it will be safe from AA. There would be two ways to do this:
      -Carefully observe AA ticks and attack in between ticks
      -Trip AA with something else like CM and go in for the jam

      EWA can combat frig but it takes time and patience. It’s not something anyone can do and is worth the effort.
      Yee Haw
    • Colonel Waffles wrote:

      ...
      EWA can combat frig but it takes time and patience. It’s not something anyone can do and is worth the effort.
      You say this as if it is already fait accompli.
      *** The Creator of Zombie Farming ***
      The KING of CoN News!!!
      The "Get off my lawn!" cranky CoN Forums Poster - not affiliated with Dorado in any way


      "Death comes to us all. Shall I deal you in?" - DoD
    • Colonel Waffles wrote:

      WalterChang wrote:

      Dealer of Death wrote:

      Hmmmm, you know what would be even better than an EWA? A PBU!!! ... with MRLS!!!
      Surely the EWA would jam the PBU's broadcast, rendering it useless?
      Holy shit you’re right!PBU counter!
      Pah, the power on the PBU goes up to 11
      -
      spinaltap-11.jpg
      *** The Creator of Zombie Farming ***
      The KING of CoN News!!!
      The "Get off my lawn!" cranky CoN Forums Poster - not affiliated with Dorado in any way


      "Death comes to us all. Shall I deal you in?" - DoD
    • WalterChang wrote:

      Dealer of Death wrote:

      Pah, the power on the PBU goes up to 11
      -
      Yeah, but the EWA would render the PB's operators completely blind, so they wouldn't be able to see the controls in order to turn the volume up, or tell their friend that's sitting next to them to do it because their communications wouldn't work.
      Completely wrong. Have you even read my posts?
      The EWA would interfere with the electrical signals in the Operator’s brain, causing them into go into a coma and rendering the PBU unit useless
      Yee Haw
    • Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Completely wrong. Have you even read my posts?
      The EWA would interfere with the electrical signals in the Operator’s brain, causing them into go into a coma and rendering the PBU unit useless
      Ah, but!

      The EWA's more limited range would mean that the PBU's broadcast reaches the pilot before he can engage his jamming systems. He would be so overcome by the negative propaganda blasting in his ears, that he would lose all his will to fight and just probably crash his plane into the ground in despair.
    • WalterChang wrote:

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      Completely wrong. Have you even read my posts?
      The EWA would interfere with the electrical signals in the Operator’s brain, causing them into go into a coma and rendering the PBU unit useless
      Ah, but!
      The EWA's more limited range would mean that the PBU's broadcast reaches the pilot before he can engage his jamming systems. He would be so overcome by the negative propaganda blasting in his ears, that he would lose all his will to fight and just probably crash his plane into the ground in despair.
      Bah
      Like your cringe “propaganda” could even scratch my experienced EWA pilot. Plus they can jam the signals before they reach him
      Yee Haw
    • WalterChang wrote:

      Colonel Waffles wrote:

      experienced EWA pilot
      You'd have to introduce a new EWA Officer unit with the special ability "Ignore Propaganda", which you can only use for 2 hours at a time before it's blocked by a 24-hour cooldown.
      You are like a little DoD in juvenile stage. They grow up so fast (sniff)

      EWA Officer will jam the enemy in ways you didn’t think possible
      Yee Haw